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>They're going to have a running Model 3 at the announcement. I guess we will see. The battery swap was also a "running" demonstration.

mikeash 11y ago
Yes? And then they built a swap station and it's in operation right now. They haven't rolled out any more because demand isn't there. Superchargers are good enough for most. But if you're implying that they hacked together a demo but don't have it actually working, that's not so
- Roritharr 11y ago
  Demand? They haven't even rolled out a sensible businessmodel for the swapping stations that includes what happens if you receive a faulty or just old battery with less capacity.
  - tymekpavel 11y ago
    During the pilot, if you receive an older battery you can take your car to a Tesla service center and they'll replace it with a new one.
  - mikeash 11y ago
    Why would they be stocking old or faulty batteries? It's not something where you share with other people. You stop in and get a charged battery from Tesla. On your way back home, you stop again and get your original battery back, now charged.
    - theoh 11y ago
      The usual argument that predicts problems with the quality of the batteries is based on Gresham's Law.
      - mikeash 11y ago
        How would that apply here?
        theoh 11y ago
        If batteries gradually lose their capacity over time, it would be in the interest of customers to look for an opportunity to swap an old battery for a new one, and never swap back. Even if Tesla operates the battery swap system fairly, there's a cost associated with this because they end up holding the bad/old batteries. Typically, though, the argument is that both customers and dealers will hang on to valuable good "money" (batteries) and thus the batteries likely to be exchanged will be of low quality. So the model you describe is one in which each customer just alternates between a few batteries that essentially belong to them. It should address the quality problem, but at the expense of complicating the business of the battery depot. Treating batteries as a non-fungible commodity is a big step.
        mikeash 11y ago
        I see why this would happen in a hypothetical scenario where batteries are shared freely and people just pick new ones up at will, but that's not what we're discussing. The only potential for trouble I see with Tesla's actual setup is people abusing the loaner batteries during their trip. And the batteries are so difficult to abuse I don't think it's a real problem.
        theoh 11y ago
        "What we're discussing" is a system which is not in the end being rolled out, but Tesla, at an early stage, did mention precisely the issues I brought up. There was to be the option to keep a newer battery received in a swap (for a fee) but also, somehow, always the possibility of getting your original battery back. How that would actually work if the original battery is in someone else's car half way across the country is left as an exercise! http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2013/06/21/tesla-90-second-battery-swap-tech-coming-this-year/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2013/06/21/tesla-90...

mikeash 11y ago

Yes? And then they built a swap station and it's in operation right now. They haven't rolled out any more because demand isn't there. Superchargers are good enough for most. But if you're implying that they hacked together a demo but don't have it actually working, that's not so

Roritharr 11y ago
Demand? They haven't even rolled out a sensible businessmodel for the swapping stations that includes what happens if you receive a faulty or just old battery with less capacity.
- tymekpavel 11y ago
  During the pilot, if you receive an older battery you can take your car to a Tesla service center and they'll replace it with a new one.
- mikeash 11y ago
  Why would they be stocking old or faulty batteries? It's not something where you share with other people. You stop in and get a charged battery from Tesla. On your way back home, you stop again and get your original battery back, now charged.
  - theoh 11y ago
    The usual argument that predicts problems with the quality of the batteries is based on Gresham's Law.
    - mikeash 11y ago
      How would that apply here?
      - theoh 11y ago
        If batteries gradually lose their capacity over time, it would be in the interest of customers to look for an opportunity to swap an old battery for a new one, and never swap back. Even if Tesla operates the battery swap system fairly, there's a cost associated with this because they end up holding the bad/old batteries. Typically, though, the argument is that both customers and dealers will hang on to valuable good "money" (batteries) and thus the batteries likely to be exchanged will be of low quality. So the model you describe is one in which each customer just alternates between a few batteries that essentially belong to them. It should address the quality problem, but at the expense of complicating the business of the battery depot. Treating batteries as a non-fungible commodity is a big step.
        mikeash 11y ago
        I see why this would happen in a hypothetical scenario where batteries are shared freely and people just pick new ones up at will, but that's not what we're discussing. The only potential for trouble I see with Tesla's actual setup is people abusing the loaner batteries during their trip. And the batteries are so difficult to abuse I don't think it's a real problem.
        theoh 11y ago
        "What we're discussing" is a system which is not in the end being rolled out, but Tesla, at an early stage, did mention precisely the issues I brought up. There was to be the option to keep a newer battery received in a swap (for a fee) but also, somehow, always the possibility of getting your original battery back. How that would actually work if the original battery is in someone else's car half way across the country is left as an exercise! http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2013/06/21/tesla-90-second-battery-swap-tech-coming-this-year/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/markrogowsky/2013/06/21/tesla-90...