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It's better than in The Netherlands, where Leads earn 60-80k EUR with a higher effective tax rate than the UK/US. It doesn't really make sense to work for an e

It's better than in The Netherlands, where Leads earn 60-80k EUR with a higher effective tax rate than the UK/US. It doesn't really make sense to work for an employer anymore, contracts pay better and if you can build your own business it's better again.

nomercy400 11y ago
I must be doing something wrong. I'm near 60k with five years of experience, and done two lead roles. Contracting, so lots of variety, but the boss takes the biggest chunk. Small dev contracting company, 30-ish people. I haven't started on my own business, because I don't know how to find contracts.
- radicalbyte 11y ago
  Not really, 5 years experience isn't much. I've been coding for 25 years, working for 15 years and leading teams for about 5 years. I'll be switching to contracting soon because it lets me double my salary & have a chance on actually working on something difficult again :) I'm a bit of an outlier of course, there are very few people who can match both my depth and breadth in development as the best tend to bail at 30 for management positions (which I very nearly did).
raverbashing 11y ago
Do you have a comparison/breakdown of contractor vs. perm earnings?
- radicalbyte 11y ago
  Of course, because I'm hiring both. Perm: 30k-80k depending on experience for Java/C# & good Javascript devs Contract: 50-80 EUR / hour depending on experience. I'm a Tech Lead / Architect so can demand more as a contractor, although for the higher paid (perm) jobs I have to travel. At the higher end you need to be really good: i.e. know more than just web development - being able to knock together CRUD apps with Rails/PHP won't cut it. Pay and rates for PHP/Ruby are much lower - the talent pool is also less capable. Strangely enough C++ has the same issue - it has been explained to me that the best C++ devs have jumped ship already so what's left isn't that good. Whilst that can be the case it's more likely to be a question of demand: Europe doesn't build systems-level software in the way America does..
  - raverbashing 11y ago
    Thanks I wonder what's the cost of the extra bureaucracy around contracting more or less
    - radicalbyte 11y ago
      Contracting: 40 work weeks are workable 15% fee for agency 200 eur / month insurances 8k/year pension Slightly more favorable tax The 40 weeks is 6 weeks holiday, 6 weeks downtime/sick. Insurance covers longer-term sickness (thus the cost). When you consider that the best developers tend to go contracting the rates actually start to look low.
- radicalbyte 11y ago
  Oh, and for anyone considering it: the dutch have a special tax break for foreign skill: you get a tax credit worth 50% of your pay. So if you earn 4k EUR / month you will actually pocket 4k after tax. Compared to a dutch native who pockets ~2.5k. You can rent a nice place in or close to Amsterdam for 1.5k / month. Your employer must arrange this (mine refused too so I never benefited from this) and then it lasts for ~5 years. It's a nice place to live (lots of pretty girls for the guys, lots of tall blond guys for the girls). People in the Valley could probably walk into Uber or Message Bird and get a job in Amsterdam for a few years, they both have a big presence there (and work on interesting problems, I guess).

nomercy400 11y ago

I must be doing something wrong. I'm near 60k with five years of experience, and done two lead roles. Contracting, so lots of variety, but the boss takes the biggest chunk. Small dev contracting company, 30-ish people. I haven't started on my own business, because I don't know how to find contracts.

radicalbyte 11y ago
Not really, 5 years experience isn't much. I've been coding for 25 years, working for 15 years and leading teams for about 5 years. I'll be switching to contracting soon because it lets me double my salary & have a chance on actually working on something difficult again :) I'm a bit of an outlier of course, there are very few people who can match both my depth and breadth in development as the best tend to bail at 30 for management positions (which I very nearly did).

raverbashing 11y ago

Do you have a comparison/breakdown of contractor vs. perm earnings?

radicalbyte 11y ago
Of course, because I'm hiring both. Perm: 30k-80k depending on experience for Java/C# & good Javascript devs Contract: 50-80 EUR / hour depending on experience. I'm a Tech Lead / Architect so can demand more as a contractor, although for the higher paid (perm) jobs I have to travel. At the higher end you need to be really good: i.e. know more than just web development - being able to knock together CRUD apps with Rails/PHP won't cut it. Pay and rates for PHP/Ruby are much lower - the talent pool is also less capable. Strangely enough C++ has the same issue - it has been explained to me that the best C++ devs have jumped ship already so what's left isn't that good. Whilst that can be the case it's more likely to be a question of demand: Europe doesn't build systems-level software in the way America does..
- raverbashing 11y ago
  Thanks I wonder what's the cost of the extra bureaucracy around contracting more or less
  - radicalbyte 11y ago
    Contracting: 40 work weeks are workable 15% fee for agency 200 eur / month insurances 8k/year pension Slightly more favorable tax The 40 weeks is 6 weeks holiday, 6 weeks downtime/sick. Insurance covers longer-term sickness (thus the cost). When you consider that the best developers tend to go contracting the rates actually start to look low.
radicalbyte 11y ago
Oh, and for anyone considering it: the dutch have a special tax break for foreign skill: you get a tax credit worth 50% of your pay. So if you earn 4k EUR / month you will actually pocket 4k after tax. Compared to a dutch native who pockets ~2.5k. You can rent a nice place in or close to Amsterdam for 1.5k / month. Your employer must arrange this (mine refused too so I never benefited from this) and then it lasts for ~5 years. It's a nice place to live (lots of pretty girls for the guys, lots of tall blond guys for the girls). People in the Valley could probably walk into Uber or Message Bird and get a job in Amsterdam for a few years, they both have a big presence there (and work on interesting problems, I guess).