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The UN is a joke. It breaks its own rules by refusing entry to a country with a vibrant democracy and a roughly comparable population and GDP as Australia—Taiw

The UN is a joke. It breaks its own rules by refusing entry to a country with a vibrant democracy and a roughly comparable population and GDP as Australia—Taiwan. Why? Because China has a veto. Consequently, not only will the UN continue breaking its own guidelines and refusing Taiwan entry but it will also never condemn China's repeated threats of invasion. Similar dynamics play out interests concerning other veto wielding countries such as the US or Russia.

macspoofing 11y ago
>Because China has a veto. Veto power is one of the big design successes of the UN. It guarantees major global powers, the ones you actually want to participate, actually participate and not ignore, or worse, pull-out and delegitimize the UN.
- gozur88 11y ago
  True. These are the countries that would have a de facto veto in any event due to military or economic power. Mostly military.
  - Tomte 11y ago
    France and Britain not really, that's only historic accident.
    - gozur88 11y ago
      France and the UK both have very powerful militaries, by world standards, and they have nuclear weapons.
hourglass74 11y ago
But the People's Republic of China is already a member, so surely the membership of Chinese Taipei would be somewhat redundant? It's not like each and every U.S. state have their own separate U.N. memberships.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- philovivero 11y ago
  Haa ha ha! Beautiful troll. But for those who aren't familiar with the situation, I'll lay it out. Taiwan was formed when a bunch of Chinese aristocrats fled the mainland. Their big mistake was, at the time, not declaring themselves a new country, but instead declaring they were the rightful rulers of all of China, and that they were, in fact, part of China. At some point, a few years later, it became obvious that wasn't going to happen, and that China was going to be its own place. So Taiwan finally realized they really needed to give up this "we are part of China and the rightful rulers" and just become their own country. However, at this point, they were a fairly prosperous state, so China found it politically-expedient to turn it around and say: "Actually, Taiwan is part of China as they've been saying all these years. We will pull them back into the fold." All sorts of political shit-storm went down at this point, and hasn't really cooled off ever since. People who frame Taiwan as being part of China (as parent did) are on the side of Mainland China. People who frame Taiwan as being an independent country (as many UN members do) are on the other side from Mainland China. The debate is very much not settled. SOURCE: was married to TW citizen for >10yr, have lived in TW for >1yr of my life. Have way more details on intricacies than I've laid out here.
  - clock_tower 11y ago
    Is it still the case that you have to pick one or the other to recognize? My understanding was that the US, for example, doesn't recognize Taiwan because it would mean losing trade with China; and that if a country recognizes Taiwan, it loses the ability to trade with mainland China, but gets various benefits from Taiwan as well as easier trade terms. Of course, it's likely that this has changed; my information is probably a few years out of date, maybe a decade or two.
  - hackuser 11y ago
    > Taiwan was formed when a bunch of Chinese aristocrats fled the mainland. This sounds like something out of Chinese Communist Party propaganda - aristocrats? The last Emperor was deposed almost 40 years before, and the Nationalists had nothing to do with them. The history: Taiwan, a large island the size of ~Maryland off the SE China coast, had been a somewhat primitive frontier of China for much of its history. Sometimes the Chinese government controlled it, sometimes not. It was a refuge for fugitives at times. Japan controlled it from 1895 until (IIRC) they lost it in WWII. Before and after WWII there was a civil war for control of China between the right-wing Nationalists, led by Chiang Kai-chek, and the left-wing Communists, led by Mao Tse-tung. Both were brutal authoritarian dictators; there were no white knights here. Not surprisingly, the U.S. favored Chiang, the Soviets favored Mao. In 1949 the Communists won. The Nationalists fled to Taiwan and the Communists lacked the capacity to attack them there, so they remained. Both parties claimed to be the legitimate government of China and I'm pretty sure the Nationalists even retained China's UN seat. In 1972, a falling out between the Communists and Soviet Union created an opportunity that the U.S. exploited. Nixon famously went to mainland China, normalized relations, and the U.S. backed away from Taiwan. The Communists got the UN seat, and all three parties agreed that Taiwan was part of China, not a separate nation, but temporarily with a separate government. Also, the issue would not be resolved by force and the U.S. has an agreement with Taiwan to defend it if necessary. That arrangement persists until today. Defending Taiwan wasn't a big deal through the 1990s, when China's military was so weak. Now it is a much more serious risk to the U.S.
hackuser 11y ago
> Why? Because China has a veto ... Similar dynamics play out interests concerning other veto wielding countries such as the US or Russia. Think of the UN as a mechnism for de facto powers to resolve conflicts and come to agreements peacefully; that's the UN's purpose, to prevent another major war. Justice would be great, but at least the catastrophe of war is prevented. Remember of the incredible destruction of WWII and now imagine what modern technology would do - even without nuclear weapons. Also, Taiwan's official policy is that they are not a separate country but a part of China, with a separate government. That is the agreement worked out between the US, China and Taiwan.
- argonaut 11y ago
  You need to be much more clear. The Republic of China's official policy is they are part of China, the geographical/historical/cultural entity. They have never said they are a part of the People's Republic of China. That is the agreement worked out between US, the PRC, and the ROC (note you said it was worked out between US, China, and Taiwan, which is inaccurate). This may seem overly pedantic, but it is not. This wording is the entire backbone of the delicate geopolitical dance that underlies the status quo we have today.
  - meric 11y ago
    Clarifying, not disagreeing; The ROC constitution has historically insisted the territories of mainland China and Taiwan are administered by the ROC. The stance is exactly the same as the PRC.
- iofj 11y ago
  > Think of the UN as a mechnism for de facto powers to resolve conflicts and come to agreements peacefully; that's the UN's purpose, to prevent another major war. The League of Nations had that as it's primary function [1]. Aside from some initial (heaveily criticized and somewhat dubious) successes, it failed. Spectacularly. The UN was created by reassembling the shattered bits of the LN ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations

macspoofing 11y ago

>Because China has a veto. Veto power is one of the big design successes of the UN. It guarantees major global powers, the ones you actually want to participate, actually participate and not ignore, or worse, pull-out and delegitimize the UN.

gozur88 11y ago
True. These are the countries that would have a de facto veto in any event due to military or economic power. Mostly military.
- Tomte 11y ago
  France and Britain not really, that's only historic accident.
  - gozur88 11y ago
    France and the UK both have very powerful militaries, by world standards, and they have nuclear weapons.

hourglass74 11y ago

But the People's Republic of China is already a member, so surely the membership of Chinese Taipei would be somewhat redundant? It's not like each and every U.S. state have their own separate U.N. memberships.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
philovivero 11y ago
Haa ha ha! Beautiful troll. But for those who aren't familiar with the situation, I'll lay it out. Taiwan was formed when a bunch of Chinese aristocrats fled the mainland. Their big mistake was, at the time, not declaring themselves a new country, but instead declaring they were the rightful rulers of all of China, and that they were, in fact, part of China. At some point, a few years later, it became obvious that wasn't going to happen, and that China was going to be its own place. So Taiwan finally realized they really needed to give up this "we are part of China and the rightful rulers" and just become their own country. However, at this point, they were a fairly prosperous state, so China found it politically-expedient to turn it around and say: "Actually, Taiwan is part of China as they've been saying all these years. We will pull them back into the fold." All sorts of political shit-storm went down at this point, and hasn't really cooled off ever since. People who frame Taiwan as being part of China (as parent did) are on the side of Mainland China. People who frame Taiwan as being an independent country (as many UN members do) are on the other side from Mainland China. The debate is very much not settled. SOURCE: was married to TW citizen for >10yr, have lived in TW for >1yr of my life. Have way more details on intricacies than I've laid out here.
- clock_tower 11y ago
  Is it still the case that you have to pick one or the other to recognize? My understanding was that the US, for example, doesn't recognize Taiwan because it would mean losing trade with China; and that if a country recognizes Taiwan, it loses the ability to trade with mainland China, but gets various benefits from Taiwan as well as easier trade terms. Of course, it's likely that this has changed; my information is probably a few years out of date, maybe a decade or two.
- hackuser 11y ago
  > Taiwan was formed when a bunch of Chinese aristocrats fled the mainland. This sounds like something out of Chinese Communist Party propaganda - aristocrats? The last Emperor was deposed almost 40 years before, and the Nationalists had nothing to do with them. The history: Taiwan, a large island the size of ~Maryland off the SE China coast, had been a somewhat primitive frontier of China for much of its history. Sometimes the Chinese government controlled it, sometimes not. It was a refuge for fugitives at times. Japan controlled it from 1895 until (IIRC) they lost it in WWII. Before and after WWII there was a civil war for control of China between the right-wing Nationalists, led by Chiang Kai-chek, and the left-wing Communists, led by Mao Tse-tung. Both were brutal authoritarian dictators; there were no white knights here. Not surprisingly, the U.S. favored Chiang, the Soviets favored Mao. In 1949 the Communists won. The Nationalists fled to Taiwan and the Communists lacked the capacity to attack them there, so they remained. Both parties claimed to be the legitimate government of China and I'm pretty sure the Nationalists even retained China's UN seat. In 1972, a falling out between the Communists and Soviet Union created an opportunity that the U.S. exploited. Nixon famously went to mainland China, normalized relations, and the U.S. backed away from Taiwan. The Communists got the UN seat, and all three parties agreed that Taiwan was part of China, not a separate nation, but temporarily with a separate government. Also, the issue would not be resolved by force and the U.S. has an agreement with Taiwan to defend it if necessary. That arrangement persists until today. Defending Taiwan wasn't a big deal through the 1990s, when China's military was so weak. Now it is a much more serious risk to the U.S.

hackuser 11y ago

> Why? Because China has a veto ... Similar dynamics play out interests concerning other veto wielding countries such as the US or Russia. Think of the UN as a mechnism for de facto powers to resolve conflicts and come to agreements peacefully; that's the UN's purpose, to prevent another major war. Justice would be great, but at least the catastrophe of war is prevented. Remember of the incredible destruction of WWII and now imagine what modern technology would do - even without nuclear weapons. Also, Taiwan's official policy is that they are not a separate country but a part of China, with a separate government. That is the agreement worked out between the US, China and Taiwan.

argonaut 11y ago
You need to be much more clear. The Republic of China's official policy is they are part of China, the geographical/historical/cultural entity. They have never said they are a part of the People's Republic of China. That is the agreement worked out between US, the PRC, and the ROC (note you said it was worked out between US, China, and Taiwan, which is inaccurate). This may seem overly pedantic, but it is not. This wording is the entire backbone of the delicate geopolitical dance that underlies the status quo we have today.
- meric 11y ago
  Clarifying, not disagreeing; The ROC constitution has historically insisted the territories of mainland China and Taiwan are administered by the ROC. The stance is exactly the same as the PRC.
iofj 11y ago
> Think of the UN as a mechnism for de facto powers to resolve conflicts and come to agreements peacefully; that's the UN's purpose, to prevent another major war. The League of Nations had that as it's primary function [1]. Aside from some initial (heaveily criticized and somewhat dubious) successes, it failed. Spectacularly. The UN was created by reassembling the shattered bits of the LN ... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations