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Anyone is entitled to feel guilt if they want - Catholics are famous for it. I'm also entitled to mock an article expressing catholic guilt if it showed up here

Anyone is entitled to feel guilt if they want - Catholics are famous for it. I'm also entitled to mock an article expressing catholic guilt if it showed up here. Josh Green is entitled to feel guilty not because he's white, but because he's a member of a group that unjustly voted itself privileges in the area of housing, to the detriment of non-members of that group. He was definitively not a member of white people in Georgia during the 50's and 60's. He wasn't even born at the time this group lost their special privileges, as noted in the article ("your one-sixth-acre slice of Atlanta had actually belonged to the family next door for longer than you’ve been alive"). Now it might be right for him to feel guilty about not doing enough. But he should certainly feel less guilty than most of us; he's done something, I've done nothing. Never even been to Atlanta. I have many friends who've never been to the US. Should they also feel guilty? In any case, that's not Copenhagen. Copenhagen says that Josh Green should feel guilty since he observed the situation, but Igor Muscovite (a Russian who never left Moscow) doesn't need to feel guilty since he's didn't make the observation. I guess the best way to avoid guilt is to bury our heads in the sand?

rayiner 11y ago
> He was definitively not a member of white people in Georgia during the 50's and 60's. It didn't just happen in Georgia, it happened all over the country. And it's reasonable to believe some of Josh Green's ancestors were in the group that voted special privileges for itself. So the question comes back to: do you carry around the guilt of your ancestors? I think you do, especially when you benefit from the ramifications of their actions. And Green is benefiting from segregation: that neighborhood would've been a lot more expensive for him to buy into had it not been for segregation.
- tpallarino 11y ago
  Ok, so let's all go trace back our family trees. If you find one of your relatives, even 400 years ago, committed a crime, you better go to everyone that was affected (which could be millions of people by now!!!!!) and give them back what was rightfully theirs. Maybe your great great great grandfather broke into their house and stole their life savings, which caused the patriarch of the house to go into debtors prison. So the young boy of the house didn't have a father for much of his life. As such, he turned to pickpocketing, robbing hundreds of people over the course of his career. Eventually he went too far and robbed someone who fought back and killed him. But none of this would have happened if your great great great grandfather hadn't been a thief. But YOU'RE responsible. Your group was responsible for the death of this kid, who knew no better than to steal. Should you be guilty? Should you go to jail? Should you live worse to repent? Don't be silly. You're not responsible for any actions other than your own.
  - rayiner 11y ago
    > You're not responsible for any actions other than your own. If everyone started from scratch, I'd agree with you. But in Atlanta, you get water from pipes built by people just after the civil war. Residents of Atlanta inherited the infrastructure and benefits of what their ancestors built. I think it's absurd to say that they can inherit the benefits, but don't inherit the obligations.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      Residents of Atlanta did not "inherit" anything. The city government inherited public works and uses them to provide city services to residents. It charges residents taxes to pay for those services and probably lots of other silly things as well. The residents pay for water and receive it. Done. This is like saying I "inherited" something from Tata and Aditya Birla and that I'm also responsible for their crimes. That's silly. I pay 300rs/month and IDEA gives me voice+data and runs MITM attacks on unencrypted connections. That's the end of our relationship.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- yummyfajitas 11y ago
  It happened all over the country before he was born. Should the children of murderers and other criminals feel guilt over the actions their parents have directly engaged in?
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Are they somehow profiting from those actions? That's a point you seemed determined to dodge here, just as when you ask if your friends who have never been to the US are somehow implicated in US segregation.
    - yummyfajitas 11y ago
      I'm not dodging anything. From my very first reply to Rayiner: As for the problems you bring up, if low prices are the problem, he's contributing to the solution by increasing demand. I segregation is the problem, he's bringing his nordic white family into the neighborhood and reducing segregation. Insofar as he's benefiting from these problems semi-directly it's because he's helping to solve them. As for me, I've passed through Georgia once on a family road trip when I was 11. Insofar as more diffuse benefits like "well those actions caused a good economy that you benefit from", I work for a Indian SAAS with American customers. How's that any different from an Indian guy working for an Indian SAAS with American customers?
      - tptacek 11y ago
        It obviously does not follow logically that simply doing something to help solve a problem necessarily outweighs the moral problem of benefiting from that wrong. That also moots your earlier dodge of "doing something to help with a problem is better than the nothing I personally do", because that nothing you personally do is not offset by profit you are reaping from the misfortune of others. I don't have a strong opinion about this debate, and I am also skeptical of anti-gentrification narratives, but the logic you're deploying here seems very sketchy.
        yummyfajitas 11y ago
- areyousure 11y ago
  I'm glad you explicitly stated that you believe people carry around the guilt of their ancestors, because I've always wanted to ask a related and very personal question. It happens to be particularly relevant to this discussion. Please know that my question is something I've wondered about for years and entirely sincere. I was born in the Soviet Union; I am white. I moved to the US state of Georgia as a child. I assume you'd say I benefited from segregation; in any case, just assume that I did. Should/Do I carry this same guilt you feel that "native" white Atlantans carry?
  - rayiner 11y ago
    Should people who bought cheap houses in foreclosure in the aftermath of the financial crisis feel a little guilty? I think so: you're getting a good deal because of a bad thing that happened to someone else. Obviously, though, you shouldn't feel as guilty as the guys who caused the housing collapse in the first place.

rayiner 11y ago

> He was definitively not a member of white people in Georgia during the 50's and 60's. It didn't just happen in Georgia, it happened all over the country. And it's reasonable to believe some of Josh Green's ancestors were in the group that voted special privileges for itself. So the question comes back to: do you carry around the guilt of your ancestors? I think you do, especially when you benefit from the ramifications of their actions. And Green is benefiting from segregation: that neighborhood would've been a lot more expensive for him to buy into had it not been for segregation.

tpallarino 11y ago
Ok, so let's all go trace back our family trees. If you find one of your relatives, even 400 years ago, committed a crime, you better go to everyone that was affected (which could be millions of people by now!!!!!) and give them back what was rightfully theirs. Maybe your great great great grandfather broke into their house and stole their life savings, which caused the patriarch of the house to go into debtors prison. So the young boy of the house didn't have a father for much of his life. As such, he turned to pickpocketing, robbing hundreds of people over the course of his career. Eventually he went too far and robbed someone who fought back and killed him. But none of this would have happened if your great great great grandfather hadn't been a thief. But YOU'RE responsible. Your group was responsible for the death of this kid, who knew no better than to steal. Should you be guilty? Should you go to jail? Should you live worse to repent? Don't be silly. You're not responsible for any actions other than your own.
- rayiner 11y ago
  > You're not responsible for any actions other than your own. If everyone started from scratch, I'd agree with you. But in Atlanta, you get water from pipes built by people just after the civil war. Residents of Atlanta inherited the infrastructure and benefits of what their ancestors built. I think it's absurd to say that they can inherit the benefits, but don't inherit the obligations.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    Residents of Atlanta did not "inherit" anything. The city government inherited public works and uses them to provide city services to residents. It charges residents taxes to pay for those services and probably lots of other silly things as well. The residents pay for water and receive it. Done. This is like saying I "inherited" something from Tata and Aditya Birla and that I'm also responsible for their crimes. That's silly. I pay 300rs/month and IDEA gives me voice+data and runs MITM attacks on unencrypted connections. That's the end of our relationship.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
yummyfajitas 11y ago
It happened all over the country before he was born. Should the children of murderers and other criminals feel guilt over the actions their parents have directly engaged in?
- tptacek 11y ago
  Are they somehow profiting from those actions? That's a point you seemed determined to dodge here, just as when you ask if your friends who have never been to the US are somehow implicated in US segregation.
  - yummyfajitas 11y ago
    I'm not dodging anything. From my very first reply to Rayiner: As for the problems you bring up, if low prices are the problem, he's contributing to the solution by increasing demand. I segregation is the problem, he's bringing his nordic white family into the neighborhood and reducing segregation. Insofar as he's benefiting from these problems semi-directly it's because he's helping to solve them. As for me, I've passed through Georgia once on a family road trip when I was 11. Insofar as more diffuse benefits like "well those actions caused a good economy that you benefit from", I work for a Indian SAAS with American customers. How's that any different from an Indian guy working for an Indian SAAS with American customers?
    - tptacek 11y ago
      It obviously does not follow logically that simply doing something to help solve a problem necessarily outweighs the moral problem of benefiting from that wrong. That also moots your earlier dodge of "doing something to help with a problem is better than the nothing I personally do", because that nothing you personally do is not offset by profit you are reaping from the misfortune of others. I don't have a strong opinion about this debate, and I am also skeptical of anti-gentrification narratives, but the logic you're deploying here seems very sketchy.
      - yummyfajitas 11y ago
areyousure 11y ago
I'm glad you explicitly stated that you believe people carry around the guilt of their ancestors, because I've always wanted to ask a related and very personal question. It happens to be particularly relevant to this discussion. Please know that my question is something I've wondered about for years and entirely sincere. I was born in the Soviet Union; I am white. I moved to the US state of Georgia as a child. I assume you'd say I benefited from segregation; in any case, just assume that I did. Should/Do I carry this same guilt you feel that "native" white Atlantans carry?
- rayiner 11y ago
  Should people who bought cheap houses in foreclosure in the aftermath of the financial crisis feel a little guilty? I think so: you're getting a good deal because of a bad thing that happened to someone else. Obviously, though, you shouldn't feel as guilty as the guys who caused the housing collapse in the first place.