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This smells of biased fanboyism. Firstly Windows users make up of 50% of the graph, so why doesn't that get any interest? And secondly the difference between OS

This smells of biased fanboyism. Firstly Windows users make up of 50% of the graph, so why doesn't that get any interest? And secondly the difference between OSX and Linux is 4.5%, from a small sample group, not newsworthy at all. I expect more people dev on OSX simply because of wanting to design for IOS, and being locking into the OS to do so.

V-2 11y ago
I wouldn't suspect such fanboyism on StackOverflow's part (they conducted the survey). Apart from that I believe you're largely right. I had to switch from Windows to OS X for this reason exactly. I'm an Android dev joined a Xamarin team recently, and you can't work on the iOS version lest you have an OS X machine. As far as UX goes, I'm not too pleased with the transition.
madmax96 11y ago
>small sample group 56,000 respondents is a small sample?
- HemanHeartYou 11y ago
  Yes actually, that is a small sample.
  - madmax96 11y ago
    The random variable `X = # of developers who use OS X` is a binomial distribution (a developer either uses OS X or doesn't, each developer has an equal probability of using OS X [1], and the experiment is the survey). To achieve an error bound of B for a binomial distribution, then we need n = 1/B^2 experiments. Solving for B, we get B = sqrt(1/n). Thus, the error bound of this experiment is theoretically B = sqrt(1/56,000) ~ 0.004. I'm by no means a stats guru, so correct me if I'm wrong. But that seems like a pretty good error rate to me. The criticism that StackOverflow isn't a good representation of the general developer community still might be valid. I honestly don't know enough about its demographics to make any educated opinion about that statement. [1] I make this assumption because there a finite set of jobs. Even if a developer's job requires them to use Windows, they had an equal probability of another developer of having a job that allowed them the freedom to choose their platform/required them to use OS X.
    - pjmlp 11y ago
      >Even if a developer's job requires them to use Windows, they had an equal probability of another developer of having a job that allowed them the freedom to choose their platform/required them to use OS X. In almost 40 years of experience, I never had the choice to chose the OS.
- jacobush 11y ago
  No, but a bigger problem is that the group is self-selected I think?
  - madmax96 11y ago
    It probably is, and that is a problem.
- TheCoelacanth 11y ago
  The sample size is enormous. The self-selection bias makes it unreliable regardless of how large the sample is.
oneeyedpigeon 11y ago
I'm doing straightforward web development on OSX, and I know others that do too. I'm not looking for an argument, but I like the build quality, the UNIX command-line and, to a small extent, the overall UI and ease-of-use of those few 'consumer'-type applications that I use. I'm not saying the benefits are enormous but, for me, I've judged them to outweigh those of Linux/Windows.
akerro 11y ago
>This smells of biased fanboyism >http://9to5mac.com http://9to5mac.com Look at comments about the post. Someone wrote that "OSX" is perfect Linux. Nice joke. If anything OSX is wasted BSD. There is nothing but fanboyism on this page.
- runholm 11y ago
  The point of that comment is that OSX gives developers the tools that Windows simply don't do very well like the console and package manager. It's not that OSX is Linux, but to many developers, it serves the same purpose.
  - pmoriarty 11y ago
    What package manager does OSX give developers? I wasn't aware OSX had one. Not an official one from Apple, anyway. There are third-party package managers, but that's not the same.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  I have notice that many millennials seem to equate GNU/Linux with UNIX.
  - Normal_gaussian 11y ago
    Yep. Very common. Looking at my peers (CS graduates last year) only a handful of us (out of ~100) know the differences and histories, and all of us will happily accept linux=unix in general conversation.
renaudg 11y ago
I think the bias is exactly the reverse of what you're saying. I expect a large part of those 50% still on Windows to be corporate devs, accessing StackOverflow during work hours on an OS they didn't necessarily have a say on. Many of them will be using OSX or Linux at home : if anything, the non-Windows figures could be underestimated. BTW StackExchange is a Windows / .NET shop, not exactly prime suspects for Apple fanboyism. https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10369/which-tools-and-technologies-are-used-to-build-the-stack-exchange-network https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10369/which-tools-a...
pjmlp 11y ago
Yeah, I am on Windows here. Since I became a 100% laptop user, my GNU/Linux usage has been constrained to VMs, server and a small netbook I use to travel. But zero Mac OS X around me. Love the OS with its NeXTStep roots, but could never get myself to pay the 1000 euros difference to get a Mac that would be somehow comparable to e.g. Thinkpad W510 in terms of available CPU/discrete graphics. Also for better or worse, my Windows roots go all the way to Windows 3.1/Win 16, so those skills are quite valuable in the enterprise. And I enjoy the love C++, .NET and Java have on the platform anyway. iOS is the only thing that might force me to eventually get a Mac, but so far Android and Windows Phone already keep me busy enough.
- swah 11y ago
  Do you use VMs for developing server side? I haven't had a great experience with Virtualbox and VMWare yet, and VPSes are 150ms away, unfortunately...
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Since we use programming languages with rich runtimes like Java and .NET, POSIX compatibility usually doesn't play a role. When it does, we use VMWare with Ubuntu or Red-Hat distributions.
anentropic 11y ago
nah it's because desktop Linux UI still sucks, and probably always will
TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago
>I expect more people dev on OSX simply because of wanting to design for IOS iOS alone does not explain OS X's popularity. I know several people who develop using OS X and have never dealt with iOS[0], including myself. [0] One caveat here: I actually have developed for iOS, but never on OS X. That was on Windows.
gutnor 11y ago
In large companies, OSX is also a more readily available option than linux. For example you can have a regular Mac setup with Office, the proper VPN software, ... In my company for example, you will get assigned a Windows machine, unless you convince your boss to get one of the "creative people" machine (designers, typesetters, ...), which is OSX. Linux, sure you can. But not on a laptop ( so if you want to work from home that's OSX or Windows), and you will need to use a VDI to use the corporate software including office. Even if you like Linux better, that's a lot of hurdles.
jsight 11y ago
Yes, comparing Linux and OSX in this graph does seem to be a less interesting data point than some of the others. In 2013 Linux and OSX made up ~38 percent of users. Now they are at ~48% while Windows has declined. Both Linux and OSX usage have continued to grow. To me that is the bigger story here.

V-2 11y ago

I wouldn't suspect such fanboyism on StackOverflow's part (they conducted the survey). Apart from that I believe you're largely right. I had to switch from Windows to OS X for this reason exactly. I'm an Android dev joined a Xamarin team recently, and you can't work on the iOS version lest you have an OS X machine. As far as UX goes, I'm not too pleased with the transition.

madmax96 11y ago

>small sample group 56,000 respondents is a small sample?

HemanHeartYou 11y ago
Yes actually, that is a small sample.
- madmax96 11y ago
  The random variable `X = # of developers who use OS X` is a binomial distribution (a developer either uses OS X or doesn't, each developer has an equal probability of using OS X [1], and the experiment is the survey). To achieve an error bound of B for a binomial distribution, then we need n = 1/B^2 experiments. Solving for B, we get B = sqrt(1/n). Thus, the error bound of this experiment is theoretically B = sqrt(1/56,000) ~ 0.004. I'm by no means a stats guru, so correct me if I'm wrong. But that seems like a pretty good error rate to me. The criticism that StackOverflow isn't a good representation of the general developer community still might be valid. I honestly don't know enough about its demographics to make any educated opinion about that statement. [1] I make this assumption because there a finite set of jobs. Even if a developer's job requires them to use Windows, they had an equal probability of another developer of having a job that allowed them the freedom to choose their platform/required them to use OS X.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    >Even if a developer's job requires them to use Windows, they had an equal probability of another developer of having a job that allowed them the freedom to choose their platform/required them to use OS X. In almost 40 years of experience, I never had the choice to chose the OS.
jacobush 11y ago
No, but a bigger problem is that the group is self-selected I think?
- madmax96 11y ago
  It probably is, and that is a problem.
TheCoelacanth 11y ago
The sample size is enormous. The self-selection bias makes it unreliable regardless of how large the sample is.

oneeyedpigeon 11y ago

I'm doing straightforward web development on OSX, and I know others that do too. I'm not looking for an argument, but I like the build quality, the UNIX command-line and, to a small extent, the overall UI and ease-of-use of those few 'consumer'-type applications that I use. I'm not saying the benefits are enormous but, for me, I've judged them to outweigh those of Linux/Windows.

akerro 11y ago

>This smells of biased fanboyism >http://9to5mac.com http://9to5mac.com Look at comments about the post. Someone wrote that "OSX" is perfect Linux. Nice joke. If anything OSX is wasted BSD. There is nothing but fanboyism on this page.

runholm 11y ago
The point of that comment is that OSX gives developers the tools that Windows simply don't do very well like the console and package manager. It's not that OSX is Linux, but to many developers, it serves the same purpose.
- pmoriarty 11y ago
  What package manager does OSX give developers? I wasn't aware OSX had one. Not an official one from Apple, anyway. There are third-party package managers, but that's not the same.
pjmlp 11y ago
I have notice that many millennials seem to equate GNU/Linux with UNIX.
- Normal_gaussian 11y ago
  Yep. Very common. Looking at my peers (CS graduates last year) only a handful of us (out of ~100) know the differences and histories, and all of us will happily accept linux=unix in general conversation.

renaudg 11y ago

I think the bias is exactly the reverse of what you're saying. I expect a large part of those 50% still on Windows to be corporate devs, accessing StackOverflow during work hours on an OS they didn't necessarily have a say on. Many of them will be using OSX or Linux at home : if anything, the non-Windows figures could be underestimated. BTW StackExchange is a Windows / .NET shop, not exactly prime suspects for Apple fanboyism. https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10369/which-tools-and-technologies-are-used-to-build-the-stack-exchange-network https://meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10369/which-tools-a...

pjmlp 11y ago

Yeah, I am on Windows here. Since I became a 100% laptop user, my GNU/Linux usage has been constrained to VMs, server and a small netbook I use to travel. But zero Mac OS X around me. Love the OS with its NeXTStep roots, but could never get myself to pay the 1000 euros difference to get a Mac that would be somehow comparable to e.g. Thinkpad W510 in terms of available CPU/discrete graphics. Also for better or worse, my Windows roots go all the way to Windows 3.1/Win 16, so those skills are quite valuable in the enterprise. And I enjoy the love C++, .NET and Java have on the platform anyway. iOS is the only thing that might force me to eventually get a Mac, but so far Android and Windows Phone already keep me busy enough.

swah 11y ago
Do you use VMs for developing server side? I haven't had a great experience with Virtualbox and VMWare yet, and VPSes are 150ms away, unfortunately...
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Since we use programming languages with rich runtimes like Java and .NET, POSIX compatibility usually doesn't play a role. When it does, we use VMWare with Ubuntu or Red-Hat distributions.

anentropic 11y ago

nah it's because desktop Linux UI still sucks, and probably always will

TazeTSchnitzel 11y ago

>I expect more people dev on OSX simply because of wanting to design for IOS iOS alone does not explain OS X's popularity. I know several people who develop using OS X and have never dealt with iOS[0], including myself. [0] One caveat here: I actually have developed for iOS, but never on OS X. That was on Windows.

gutnor 11y ago

In large companies, OSX is also a more readily available option than linux. For example you can have a regular Mac setup with Office, the proper VPN software, ... In my company for example, you will get assigned a Windows machine, unless you convince your boss to get one of the "creative people" machine (designers, typesetters, ...), which is OSX. Linux, sure you can. But not on a laptop ( so if you want to work from home that's OSX or Windows), and you will need to use a VDI to use the corporate software including office. Even if you like Linux better, that's a lot of hurdles.

jsight 11y ago

Yes, comparing Linux and OSX in this graph does seem to be a less interesting data point than some of the others. In 2013 Linux and OSX made up ~38 percent of users. Now they are at ~48% while Windows has declined. Both Linux and OSX usage have continued to grow. To me that is the bigger story here.