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Well, there are two groups of companies. Companies that can't find the talent that they need in this country, and companies trying to save money. There definit

Well, there are two groups of companies. Companies that can't find the talent that they need in this country, and companies trying to save money. There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. Ask any hiring manager at a tech company. Facebook, Microsoft, Google, and many, many other companies do not underpay or maltreat their visa-holding employees in any way. It is primarily this class of companies that are asking for an expansion in the number of visas. Several bills have been introduced in Congress that would have (further) restricted the ability of the less-nice companies to underpay immigrants or displace native-born workers. For example, S.744 from the 113th Congress. It is wrong to paint all companies with the same brush.

nommm-nommm 11y ago
>There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. 1) STEM is a term so board to be nonsensical in this context. 2) There may be some self-imposed "shortage" but that doesn't mean anything. Anyone can come up with a job with qualifications impossible to meet. Especially if this is a fake [1] job opening created solely so you can say "shortage!" [1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU Who is really being dishonest?
- mavelikara 11y ago
  IMO, there is plenty of dishonesty going around, from both sides of this argument: A) "H-1B are the best and brightest of the world!" B) "H-1B is only about hiring cheaper programers!" Looking at the publicly available H-1B data, it is pretty clear (to me, at least) that both these arguments are caricatures - some truth, but huge exaggerations. Everyone who holds on tight to one extreme of this spectrum, vociferously arguing against the existence of other cases look dishonest to me.
  - dalke 11y ago
    Congratulations on constructing two straw men so you can polarize the discussion, declare "a pox on both their houses" and position yourself as the moderate. That's a refreshing new technique that irritates no one.
no_wave 11y ago
There is absolutely no STEM shortage at the Facebook/Google level. Google has been on the record many times that they're happy rejecting good applicants in order to reduce the risk of hiring a bad candidate. That's not what hiring during a shortage looks like.
- cubano 11y ago
  This is so very true, and not only that, they use their ridiculous exclusionary and arbitrary hiring practices as a self-enforced proof that they absolutely need more low cost H1B workers.
  - winter_blue 11y ago
    I find it willfully ignorant, hateful, and racist how you keep demeaning immigrant workers by characterizing them as "low cost". I graduated very recently with a B.S. in Computer Science, and my total comp (incl. bonuses) at my current company is slightly over $150,000. I am not over-worked, or under-paid. (I have never met any of these "cheap workers" myself, but I'm sure they exist in some corners.) It is disgusting, dishonest and offensive how your portray every H-1B visa holder as a "low cost" worker.
    - chrisbennet 11y ago
      You most likely haven't met the low cost H1B's because you are so new to the industry or the 1 or 2 companies you've worked for aren't big companies that are outsourcing their work force. (This is not a criticism.) The anger that some feel, is towards employers who say their is a STEM shortage but what they mean is that they can't hire someone cheaply enough. As Joel Spolsky said: "Now, let's review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That's a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when somebody wants to buy something, if they are willing to pay the market price, they will be able to buy it. It's just a matter of both sides accepting the market price. The trouble comes when people are not realistic about market prices. " Whaddaya Mean, You Can't Find Programmers? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000050.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000050.html
dalke 11y ago
No, there is not a STEM shortage because "STEM" is a nonsense term. The companies you mentioned don't want to hire anthropologists, general relativity theorists, large animal biologists, nuclear power engineers, differential geometry experts, meteorologists, pharmaceutical chemists, or most of the other diverse fields in STEM. No, the shortage is only in from a much smaller subset of primarily programming related skills. If there were a real shortage, FB and others would start their own training program, give people scholarships to attend for a year and get up to speed, then hire the best candidates from that pool. We are nowhere near there because it's cheaper to get people to pay for their own education (or get the government to pay for it), and hire from that. Historical, that's similar to what happened when there were real labor shortages. After all, it's not like all the women welders during WWII came in knowing how to weld.
- winter_blue 11y ago
  The idea that good programmers are as easily trainable as good welders is ridiculous. If that were the case, we wouldn't have a shortage. My company actually does try to train people. We hire people who come out of coding camps like General Assembly -- and we actually pay these camps when we hire them. Students attend these camps for free. After that, we pair program with them, and painstakingly explain various concepts to them. We hold them by the hand, and literally teach them. I found it amazing that my company had to do this, and shocking that they literally could not find good developers. My company is just looking for developers that can get shit done. We are not looking for rock stars, or master algorithm puzzle solvers. Just people who can build decent, functioning non-broken software. FYI, I graduated very recently with a B.S. in Computer Science, and my total comp (incl. bonuses) is slightly over $150,000. And, at my company, the typical workday is from 10 am to 6 pm. I am not over-worked, or under-paid. It is clear that you've neither been in a position of hiring developers, nor have an idea of what good programming skill is.
  - nmrm2 11y ago
    It is clear that you've never been through an entire market cycle.
ones_and_zeros 11y ago
There is not a STEM shortage according to many academics who study the issue and scientific research. What you are claiming is a shortage is a lot like me claiming there is a shortage of Mercedes vehicles because I can't afford the ones on the market. Supply will meet demand and I wish employers were encouraged to train already well educated people that are in this country already than lobby for the expansion of immigration, because to me the expansion of immigration just really looks like employers not willing to pay market rates.
- winter_blue 11y ago
  There is also no anthropogenic climate change according to the scientists that many GOP congressmen love to cite. There are an overwhelming number of organizations, companies, universities, and other institutions that have talked about the benefits of a less restrictive immigration system. You willfully chose to ignore all of them, and pick the ones that fit your false, preconceived, prejudiced beliefs. Do you realize that what people like you are advocating is exclusion and severe restriction of immigration? It's very nativist, xenophobic, extremely right-wing and anti-progressive. Most of your ancestors would not have made it into the United States under the current system. I've commented in more detail about this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11312557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11312557
  - ones_and_zeros 11y ago
    Whoa easy with the name calling. I'd personally love a less restrictive immigration system. But OPT and H1B are very restrictive and benefit employers much more than they benefit society. The government and those that control the immigration system serves the people and I think they sometimes forget that and come up with policies that are very beneficial to employers at the expense of the middle class. I think this is part of a major systemic issue that is leading to the squeeze on the middle class. One of these days I'm going to write that blog titled something like "How to take a position against current immigration policies and not be called a xenophobe".
    - 11y ago
supergeek133 11y ago
I also think part of the "not finding talent" problem is requirements on college degrees. It's just not necessary anymore.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  I don't think that a degree was ever necessary, there's always been self taught people. It's just the amount of accessible info on the Internet makes it much easier to self teach nowadays. I don't know about Facebook/Google specifically but some companies will only interview/hire people with experience/know how in the very specific technology stack they use. I guess because they don't want the employee to "waste" time learning a new language/framework. You miss out on some great engineers that way. Thankfully my job doesn't require new hires to know the syntax of any particular programming language.
  - supergeek133 11y ago
    I'm sure that's true for startup-y type companies.. but I'm in Minnesota (3M, Best Buy, Target, Honeywell) where unless you know someone even getting in the door for a first interview without a degree can prove impossible.
    - nommm-nommm 11y ago
      Oh yeah, depends totally on company policy for sure. I was just responding to the "anymore" part and adding in another reason why some companies claim "shortage."
brianwawok 11y ago
If there aren't enough STEM candidates in the US, pay more. How many smart people right now go into law and finance, both fields of which have possibly too many candidates?
lsc 11y ago
> Well, there are two groups of companies. Companies that can't find the talent that they need in this country, and companies trying to save money. how are the two things different? Obviously, as you raise wages, you gain access to a larger pool of applicants. I am not making a moral judgment about people who are unwilling to pay more than X for a service... but my point is just that in a free market, "there is not enough supply of service X" means exactly the same thing as "the price of service X is too high"

nommm-nommm 11y ago

>There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. 1) STEM is a term so board to be nonsensical in this context. 2) There may be some self-imposed "shortage" but that doesn't mean anything. Anyone can come up with a job with qualifications impossible to meet. Especially if this is a fake [1] job opening created solely so you can say "shortage!" [1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU Who is really being dishonest?

mavelikara 11y ago
IMO, there is plenty of dishonesty going around, from both sides of this argument: A) "H-1B are the best and brightest of the world!" B) "H-1B is only about hiring cheaper programers!" Looking at the publicly available H-1B data, it is pretty clear (to me, at least) that both these arguments are caricatures - some truth, but huge exaggerations. Everyone who holds on tight to one extreme of this spectrum, vociferously arguing against the existence of other cases look dishonest to me.
- dalke 11y ago
  Congratulations on constructing two straw men so you can polarize the discussion, declare "a pox on both their houses" and position yourself as the moderate. That's a refreshing new technique that irritates no one.

no_wave 11y ago

There is absolutely no STEM shortage at the Facebook/Google level. Google has been on the record many times that they're happy rejecting good applicants in order to reduce the risk of hiring a bad candidate. That's not what hiring during a shortage looks like.

cubano 11y ago
This is so very true, and not only that, they use their ridiculous exclusionary and arbitrary hiring practices as a self-enforced proof that they absolutely need more low cost H1B workers.
- winter_blue 11y ago
  I find it willfully ignorant, hateful, and racist how you keep demeaning immigrant workers by characterizing them as "low cost". I graduated very recently with a B.S. in Computer Science, and my total comp (incl. bonuses) at my current company is slightly over $150,000. I am not over-worked, or under-paid. (I have never met any of these "cheap workers" myself, but I'm sure they exist in some corners.) It is disgusting, dishonest and offensive how your portray every H-1B visa holder as a "low cost" worker.
  - chrisbennet 11y ago
    You most likely haven't met the low cost H1B's because you are so new to the industry or the 1 or 2 companies you've worked for aren't big companies that are outsourcing their work force. (This is not a criticism.) The anger that some feel, is towards employers who say their is a STEM shortage but what they mean is that they can't hire someone cheaply enough. As Joel Spolsky said: "Now, let's review some microeconomics. In a free market, it is almost axiomatic that the market always clears. That's a technical term that means that when somebody tries to sell something, if they are willing to accept the market price, they will be able to sell it, and when somebody wants to buy something, if they are willing to pay the market price, they will be able to buy it. It's just a matter of both sides accepting the market price. The trouble comes when people are not realistic about market prices. " Whaddaya Mean, You Can't Find Programmers? http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000050.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000050.html

dalke 11y ago

No, there is not a STEM shortage because "STEM" is a nonsense term. The companies you mentioned don't want to hire anthropologists, general relativity theorists, large animal biologists, nuclear power engineers, differential geometry experts, meteorologists, pharmaceutical chemists, or most of the other diverse fields in STEM. No, the shortage is only in from a much smaller subset of primarily programming related skills. If there were a real shortage, FB and others would start their own training program, give people scholarships to attend for a year and get up to speed, then hire the best candidates from that pool. We are nowhere near there because it's cheaper to get people to pay for their own education (or get the government to pay for it), and hire from that. Historical, that's similar to what happened when there were real labor shortages. After all, it's not like all the women welders during WWII came in knowing how to weld.

winter_blue 11y ago
The idea that good programmers are as easily trainable as good welders is ridiculous. If that were the case, we wouldn't have a shortage. My company actually does try to train people. We hire people who come out of coding camps like General Assembly -- and we actually pay these camps when we hire them. Students attend these camps for free. After that, we pair program with them, and painstakingly explain various concepts to them. We hold them by the hand, and literally teach them. I found it amazing that my company had to do this, and shocking that they literally could not find good developers. My company is just looking for developers that can get shit done. We are not looking for rock stars, or master algorithm puzzle solvers. Just people who can build decent, functioning non-broken software. FYI, I graduated very recently with a B.S. in Computer Science, and my total comp (incl. bonuses) is slightly over $150,000. And, at my company, the typical workday is from 10 am to 6 pm. I am not over-worked, or under-paid. It is clear that you've neither been in a position of hiring developers, nor have an idea of what good programming skill is.
- nmrm2 11y ago
  It is clear that you've never been through an entire market cycle.

ones_and_zeros 11y ago

There is not a STEM shortage according to many academics who study the issue and scientific research. What you are claiming is a shortage is a lot like me claiming there is a shortage of Mercedes vehicles because I can't afford the ones on the market. Supply will meet demand and I wish employers were encouraged to train already well educated people that are in this country already than lobby for the expansion of immigration, because to me the expansion of immigration just really looks like employers not willing to pay market rates.

winter_blue 11y ago
There is also no anthropogenic climate change according to the scientists that many GOP congressmen love to cite. There are an overwhelming number of organizations, companies, universities, and other institutions that have talked about the benefits of a less restrictive immigration system. You willfully chose to ignore all of them, and pick the ones that fit your false, preconceived, prejudiced beliefs. Do you realize that what people like you are advocating is exclusion and severe restriction of immigration? It's very nativist, xenophobic, extremely right-wing and anti-progressive. Most of your ancestors would not have made it into the United States under the current system. I've commented in more detail about this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11312557 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11312557
- ones_and_zeros 11y ago
  Whoa easy with the name calling. I'd personally love a less restrictive immigration system. But OPT and H1B are very restrictive and benefit employers much more than they benefit society. The government and those that control the immigration system serves the people and I think they sometimes forget that and come up with policies that are very beneficial to employers at the expense of the middle class. I think this is part of a major systemic issue that is leading to the squeeze on the middle class. One of these days I'm going to write that blog titled something like "How to take a position against current immigration policies and not be called a xenophobe".
  - 11y ago

supergeek133 11y ago

I also think part of the "not finding talent" problem is requirements on college degrees. It's just not necessary anymore.

nommm-nommm 11y ago
I don't think that a degree was ever necessary, there's always been self taught people. It's just the amount of accessible info on the Internet makes it much easier to self teach nowadays. I don't know about Facebook/Google specifically but some companies will only interview/hire people with experience/know how in the very specific technology stack they use. I guess because they don't want the employee to "waste" time learning a new language/framework. You miss out on some great engineers that way. Thankfully my job doesn't require new hires to know the syntax of any particular programming language.
- supergeek133 11y ago
  I'm sure that's true for startup-y type companies.. but I'm in Minnesota (3M, Best Buy, Target, Honeywell) where unless you know someone even getting in the door for a first interview without a degree can prove impossible.
  - nommm-nommm 11y ago
    Oh yeah, depends totally on company policy for sure. I was just responding to the "anymore" part and adding in another reason why some companies claim "shortage."

brianwawok 11y ago

If there aren't enough STEM candidates in the US, pay more. How many smart people right now go into law and finance, both fields of which have possibly too many candidates?

lsc 11y ago

> Well, there are two groups of companies. Companies that can't find the talent that they need in this country, and companies trying to save money. how are the two things different? Obviously, as you raise wages, you gain access to a larger pool of applicants. I am not making a moral judgment about people who are unwilling to pay more than X for a service... but my point is just that in a free market, "there is not enough supply of service X" means exactly the same thing as "the price of service X is too high"