7 ms·

I'm jaded. But stories like this are planned to divert to things like what IBM are doing or job shops like Tata,etc. "Oh look at what immigrants are contribut

I'm jaded. But stories like this are planned to divert to things like what IBM are doing or job shops like Tata,etc. "Oh look at what immigrants are contributing in entrepreneurial sense, but ignore how big companies are moving jobs overseas." IBM and Disney, iconic US brands are at the for front of outsourcing local jobs using H1B scabs as the route.

dalke 11y ago
There's no reason to feel jaded. What you say is absolutely true. That's why these reports always come from think tanks, without peer review, and half-assed analyses, but dressed in the clothing of rigorous, critical scholarship.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  >That's why these reports always come from think tanks, without peer review, and half-assed analyses, but dressed in the clothing of rigorous, critical scholarship. As if academic scholarship is without the same problems....
  - dalke 11y ago
    Certainly. Whoever makes that claim is ignorant of how science and scholarship is done. I am not so ignorant, nor do I mean to imply that the converse or the inverse are true.
beambot 11y ago
Right idea (being jaded) but wrong reason. It's more likely a political jab at the various GOP candidates' opinions about H1Bs.
- dalke 11y ago
  The author has been writing about immigration policy for some time. From the bio at the end of the report, this includes 'four and a half years on Capitol Hill on the Senate Immigration Subcommittee' and a 2010 book titled 'Immigration'. It's therefore very unlikely that this piece concerns the specific views of any of the current candidates but is instead the author's long-term interest. Moreover, the National Foundation for American Policy focuses "on trade, immigration and related issues" and the board includes "former INS Commissioner James Ziglar." The NFAP is set up to influence policy decisions, and meant to be read by those who regularly read the 'Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Washington Post', etc. All this goes strongly against your hypothesis that it is "a political jab at the various GOP candidates' opinions". The author previously worked at Cato and other libertian think tanks. These are often aligned with business interests by wanting to reduce the constraints on what a large business is allowed to do. Which is the association that jmspring correctly, IMO, makes.
  - beambot 11y ago
    Fair enough. I stand corrected.
- tosseraccount 11y ago
  Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Hillary Clinton, and John Kasich are firm supporters of expansion of guest worker visas. Trump and Sanders oppose.
  - winter_blue 11y ago
    The H-1B is a dual-intent[1] temporary work visa, and most H-1B visa holders intend to stay here permanently, and eventually are sponsored green cards (permanent residency) by their employers. Rubio, Cruz, et al have called for legislation that punishes employers that do not sponsor green cards for their H-1B employees (by restricting their ability to hire more H-1B workers). So, no, most of them do not support "guest worker visas". They support permanent skilled immigration. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent
winter_blue 11y ago
Wow, "scab" is a strong word. I was only familiar with the wound-related definition, so I had to look it up. The Google definition is: "a person or thing regarded with dislike and disgust". So I guess you regard me and the many other immigrants to the US with "dislike and disgust". It is a shame that you hold immigrants in such contempt, but I am confidant that the majority of Americans are not as hateful and "disgust"-filled as you are.
- mmargerum 11y ago
  I think "Scab" in this context refers to non union workers employers would bring in to end a strike or bust up a union.
  - winter_blue 11y ago
    How on earth does the context imply "non union workers employers would bring in to end a strike"? The context does not say anything of the sort. FYI: I believe employers are supposed to attest that there is no strike going on at their workplace, and the H-1 or H-2 visa holders are not being hired to end a strike. I remember reading this regulation somewhere. That being said, I've never heard of strikes occurring in STEM fields.
    - dalke 11y ago
      You understood neither the original term "scab", as short for "scab worker", which is a derogatory term for strikebreaker, nor the use in this context as a metaphor, in this case likely meaning for people willing to work at cut-rate wage to replace a worker who thinks those wages are unjust. For example, originally "carpetbagger" was used specifically for a Northern who went the South after the US Civil war, and were seen as doing so to advance personal power or profits. It's since acquired a much broader, though still pejorative, meaning. Since you don't have much experience with the term, you might need to research more about how it's used in the broader context. Some strikes in STEM fields include the Boeing machinists strike of 2008 by the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace, the 2007 United Space Alliance strike by members of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, and the 2015 WCAU Photographers and Camera Operators Strike by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. Probably the most famous STEM strike in the US is the air traffic controller strike by PATCO in 1981. For smaller examples just from 2015, here's a partial strike by medical physicists in Australia - http://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/un-doctored/2015/june-2015/02/Medical-physicists-intensify-strike-action.aspx http://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/un-doctored/2015/june-2015/02/Medi... . Here's a strike by medical doctors at University of California campuses in Southern California - http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-doctors-strike-uc-20150411-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-doctors-strike-u... . Here's a programmer strike in India - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kozhikode/Computer-programmers-strike-hits-CU-admissions/articleshow/47476998.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kozhikode/Computer-p... .
winter_blue 11y ago
Well, there are two groups of companies. Companies that can't find the talent that they need in this country, and companies trying to save money. There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. Ask any hiring manager at a tech company. Facebook, Microsoft, Google, and many, many other companies do not underpay or maltreat their visa-holding employees in any way. It is primarily this class of companies that are asking for an expansion in the number of visas. Several bills have been introduced in Congress that would have (further) restricted the ability of the less-nice companies to underpay immigrants or displace native-born workers. For example, S.744 from the 113th Congress. It is wrong to paint all companies with the same brush.
- nommm-nommm 11y ago
  >There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. 1) STEM is a term so board to be nonsensical in this context. 2) There may be some self-imposed "shortage" but that doesn't mean anything. Anyone can come up with a job with qualifications impossible to meet. Especially if this is a fake [1] job opening created solely so you can say "shortage!" [1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU Who is really being dishonest?
  - mavelikara 11y ago
    IMO, there is plenty of dishonesty going around, from both sides of this argument: A) "H-1B are the best and brightest of the world!" B) "H-1B is only about hiring cheaper programers!" Looking at the publicly available H-1B data, it is pretty clear (to me, at least) that both these arguments are caricatures - some truth, but huge exaggerations. Everyone who holds on tight to one extreme of this spectrum, vociferously arguing against the existence of other cases look dishonest to me.
    - dalke 11y ago
      Congratulations on constructing two straw men so you can polarize the discussion, declare "a pox on both their houses" and position yourself as the moderate. That's a refreshing new technique that irritates no one.
ArkyBeagle 11y ago
IBM and Disney are old line ... "fading" companies that are attempting vainly to deal with Baumol cost disease. There's an "American Experience" about Disney in particular that makes it clear that the company has always been on the edge of disaster. It took the Mickey Mouse law to get them this far. People who are prepared to emigrate seem slightly more likely to take the risk of a startup. And to an extent, the people who emigrate who are also qualified to play that game are largely the children of the elites in their home country. Never mind how grad schools work.

dalke 11y ago

There's no reason to feel jaded. What you say is absolutely true. That's why these reports always come from think tanks, without peer review, and half-assed analyses, but dressed in the clothing of rigorous, critical scholarship.

forgetsusername 11y ago
>That's why these reports always come from think tanks, without peer review, and half-assed analyses, but dressed in the clothing of rigorous, critical scholarship. As if academic scholarship is without the same problems....
- dalke 11y ago
  Certainly. Whoever makes that claim is ignorant of how science and scholarship is done. I am not so ignorant, nor do I mean to imply that the converse or the inverse are true.

beambot 11y ago

Right idea (being jaded) but wrong reason. It's more likely a political jab at the various GOP candidates' opinions about H1Bs.

dalke 11y ago
The author has been writing about immigration policy for some time. From the bio at the end of the report, this includes 'four and a half years on Capitol Hill on the Senate Immigration Subcommittee' and a 2010 book titled 'Immigration'. It's therefore very unlikely that this piece concerns the specific views of any of the current candidates but is instead the author's long-term interest. Moreover, the National Foundation for American Policy focuses "on trade, immigration and related issues" and the board includes "former INS Commissioner James Ziglar." The NFAP is set up to influence policy decisions, and meant to be read by those who regularly read the 'Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Washington Post', etc. All this goes strongly against your hypothesis that it is "a political jab at the various GOP candidates' opinions". The author previously worked at Cato and other libertian think tanks. These are often aligned with business interests by wanting to reduce the constraints on what a large business is allowed to do. Which is the association that jmspring correctly, IMO, makes.
- beambot 11y ago
  Fair enough. I stand corrected.
tosseraccount 11y ago
Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, Hillary Clinton, and John Kasich are firm supporters of expansion of guest worker visas. Trump and Sanders oppose.
- winter_blue 11y ago
  The H-1B is a dual-intent[1] temporary work visa, and most H-1B visa holders intend to stay here permanently, and eventually are sponsored green cards (permanent residency) by their employers. Rubio, Cruz, et al have called for legislation that punishes employers that do not sponsor green cards for their H-1B employees (by restricting their ability to hire more H-1B workers). So, no, most of them do not support "guest worker visas". They support permanent skilled immigration. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent

winter_blue 11y ago

Wow, "scab" is a strong word. I was only familiar with the wound-related definition, so I had to look it up. The Google definition is: "a person or thing regarded with dislike and disgust". So I guess you regard me and the many other immigrants to the US with "dislike and disgust". It is a shame that you hold immigrants in such contempt, but I am confidant that the majority of Americans are not as hateful and "disgust"-filled as you are.

mmargerum 11y ago
I think "Scab" in this context refers to non union workers employers would bring in to end a strike or bust up a union.
- winter_blue 11y ago
  How on earth does the context imply "non union workers employers would bring in to end a strike"? The context does not say anything of the sort. FYI: I believe employers are supposed to attest that there is no strike going on at their workplace, and the H-1 or H-2 visa holders are not being hired to end a strike. I remember reading this regulation somewhere. That being said, I've never heard of strikes occurring in STEM fields.
  - dalke 11y ago
    You understood neither the original term "scab", as short for "scab worker", which is a derogatory term for strikebreaker, nor the use in this context as a metaphor, in this case likely meaning for people willing to work at cut-rate wage to replace a worker who thinks those wages are unjust. For example, originally "carpetbagger" was used specifically for a Northern who went the South after the US Civil war, and were seen as doing so to advance personal power or profits. It's since acquired a much broader, though still pejorative, meaning. Since you don't have much experience with the term, you might need to research more about how it's used in the broader context. Some strikes in STEM fields include the Boeing machinists strike of 2008 by the Society of Professional Engineering Employees in Aerospace, the 2007 United Space Alliance strike by members of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, and the 2015 WCAU Photographers and Camera Operators Strike by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. Probably the most famous STEM strike in the US is the air traffic controller strike by PATCO in 1981. For smaller examples just from 2015, here's a partial strike by medical physicists in Australia - http://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/un-doctored/2015/june-2015/02/Medical-physicists-intensify-strike-action.aspx http://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/un-doctored/2015/june-2015/02/Medi... . Here's a strike by medical doctors at University of California campuses in Southern California - http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-doctors-strike-uc-20150411-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-doctors-strike-u... . Here's a programmer strike in India - http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kozhikode/Computer-programmers-strike-hits-CU-admissions/articleshow/47476998.cms http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/kozhikode/Computer-p... .

winter_blue 11y ago

Well, there are two groups of companies. Companies that can't find the talent that they need in this country, and companies trying to save money. There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. Ask any hiring manager at a tech company. Facebook, Microsoft, Google, and many, many other companies do not underpay or maltreat their visa-holding employees in any way. It is primarily this class of companies that are asking for an expansion in the number of visas. Several bills have been introduced in Congress that would have (further) restricted the ability of the less-nice companies to underpay immigrants or displace native-born workers. For example, S.744 from the 113th Congress. It is wrong to paint all companies with the same brush.

nommm-nommm 11y ago
>There definitely is a STEM shortage, and you are being really dishonest if you say there isn't. 1) STEM is a term so board to be nonsensical in this context. 2) There may be some self-imposed "shortage" but that doesn't mean anything. Anyone can come up with a job with qualifications impossible to meet. Especially if this is a fake [1] job opening created solely so you can say "shortage!" [1] https://youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU https://youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU Who is really being dishonest?
- mavelikara 11y ago
  IMO, there is plenty of dishonesty going around, from both sides of this argument: A) "H-1B are the best and brightest of the world!" B) "H-1B is only about hiring cheaper programers!" Looking at the publicly available H-1B data, it is pretty clear (to me, at least) that both these arguments are caricatures - some truth, but huge exaggerations. Everyone who holds on tight to one extreme of this spectrum, vociferously arguing against the existence of other cases look dishonest to me.
  - dalke 11y ago
    Congratulations on constructing two straw men so you can polarize the discussion, declare "a pox on both their houses" and position yourself as the moderate. That's a refreshing new technique that irritates no one.

ArkyBeagle 11y ago

IBM and Disney are old line ... "fading" companies that are attempting vainly to deal with Baumol cost disease. There's an "American Experience" about Disney in particular that makes it clear that the company has always been on the edge of disaster. It took the Mickey Mouse law to get them this far. People who are prepared to emigrate seem slightly more likely to take the risk of a startup. And to an extent, the people who emigrate who are also qualified to play that game are largely the children of the elites in their home country. Never mind how grad schools work.