4 ms·

At-will employment does not extend to firing people in order to not comply with a court order.

kabdib 11y ago
HR to security engineer: "You're quitting? That's a shame. Um . . . Tim Cook has a beach house he wouldn't mind you using for a while. Can you walk his dog?" My point is, the individuals won't suffer.
- pchristensen 11y ago
  "You're quitting? And leaving a hard technical division of the most financially successful and popular tech product of its generation? And your only recourse is the Silicon Valley job market? ... ... We'll miss you but I'm sure you'll land on your feet."
- smitherfield 11y ago
  When you get a lawful court order, you comply with it. To do otherwise would result in massive fines and quite possibly executives being criminally charged. If the Apple security engineers want to quit on principle, then it truly would be on principle; there is absolutely no way Apple's legal department would allow them to ever be rehired or offered any compensation/gifts beyond a standard severance package. If engineers did quit, Apple would be forced to (at great expense) temporarily hire other people with comparable expertise in order to comply with the order. That said, Apple security engineers probably would land on their feet.
  - kabdib 11y ago
    But "great expense" enters into the all-writs test. That would have to be re-examined.
  - ridgeguy 11y ago
    I'm not sure Apple could be fined if its relevant employees took individual decisions that resulted in Apple's inability to comply with the court's order. Apple doesn't have the ability to compel an individual's conduct. The court's order applies to Apple, not to named individuals. Given that, I don't see a legal basis for fines, executive criminal charges, etc. I think there's a lot of power in the hands of a few employees (and potential replacements) here. It'll be interesting to see what they decide to do.
    - smitherfield 11y ago
      They could certainly be fined, charged with obstruction of justice/contempt of court etc, if Apple gave monetary or other incentives to its employees to make said decisions, as the commenter I was responding to was suggesting.
      - kabdib 11y ago
        What about good references? What about "Okay, we understand, but we'll gladly have you back (with a signing bonus) when this blows over?" A court order doesn't extend to Apple being required to be a dick to its ex-employees. (And yeah, if any of you folks want a job, there are a zillion people on HN happy to talk, I'm sure)

HR to security engineer: "You're quitting? That's a shame. Um . . . Tim Cook has a beach house he wouldn't mind you using for a while. Can you walk his dog?" My point is, the individuals won't suffer.

pchristensen 11y ago
"You're quitting? And leaving a hard technical division of the most financially successful and popular tech product of its generation? And your only recourse is the Silicon Valley job market? ... ... We'll miss you but I'm sure you'll land on your feet."
smitherfield 11y ago
When you get a lawful court order, you comply with it. To do otherwise would result in massive fines and quite possibly executives being criminally charged. If the Apple security engineers want to quit on principle, then it truly would be on principle; there is absolutely no way Apple's legal department would allow them to ever be rehired or offered any compensation/gifts beyond a standard severance package. If engineers did quit, Apple would be forced to (at great expense) temporarily hire other people with comparable expertise in order to comply with the order. That said, Apple security engineers probably would land on their feet.
- kabdib 11y ago
  But "great expense" enters into the all-writs test. That would have to be re-examined.
- ridgeguy 11y ago
  I'm not sure Apple could be fined if its relevant employees took individual decisions that resulted in Apple's inability to comply with the court's order. Apple doesn't have the ability to compel an individual's conduct. The court's order applies to Apple, not to named individuals. Given that, I don't see a legal basis for fines, executive criminal charges, etc. I think there's a lot of power in the hands of a few employees (and potential replacements) here. It'll be interesting to see what they decide to do.
  - smitherfield 11y ago
    They could certainly be fined, charged with obstruction of justice/contempt of court etc, if Apple gave monetary or other incentives to its employees to make said decisions, as the commenter I was responding to was suggesting.
    - kabdib 11y ago
      What about good references? What about "Okay, we understand, but we'll gladly have you back (with a signing bonus) when this blows over?" A court order doesn't extend to Apple being required to be a dick to its ex-employees. (And yeah, if any of you folks want a job, there are a zillion people on HN happy to talk, I'm sure)