5 ms·

Seeing this paper is bittersweet for me as I work in a memory neuroscience lab that's been working on essentially the same question for a number of years. These

Seeing this paper is bittersweet for me as I work in a memory neuroscience lab that's been working on essentially the same question for a number of years. These guys beat us to the headline :( That said, it is a great accomplishment for the field. Less so for the prospect of 'memory-restoring' technology in the near future, but more for what it says about how memory works. Essentially, this paper (and our work hopefully coming soon), proves that retrieval cues are the most superficial aspect of the brain's systems for memory. Thus, they fall first to the ravages of Alzheimer's and when they're gone, the pattern of information is still there, but the brain is unable to recall that specific memory when input into the network is noisy. There's been some other papers recently showing the persistence of memories even when synapses and spines are lost (for example, during hibernation). It's as if a record of learning is also stored somewhere in the cell's genes, but no one seems to really know what to make of it. Maybe that stuff will also be of interest to neural network people... All that said, there's now a large-scale study getting started in Canada that will be stimulating the brains of MCI and AD patients with tDCS to slow down Alzheimer's (pACT-MD). Maybe they'll be able to recover some those lost memories!

ZeroFries 11y ago
As in the cells store enough information to recreate those synapses when needed?
- azernik 11y ago
  Not an expert; what I think jdpigeon is referring to, though, is that the information storage is just fine, even if the indexing mechanisms aren't. Like recovering data from a broken filesystem - the directory structure is lost and for a normal usecase the data might as well be gone, but a lot of the content is theoretically there and recoverable if some indexing system (even one different from the original) can be created.
- jdpigeon 11y ago
  Yes! It hasn't been demonstrated in mammals, but in the elife paper linked above, I think they saw synapses regrowing in the same positions. However, its not clear if it's actually necessary for them to be in the same position.
bradneuberg 11y ago
"There's been some other papers recently showing the persistence of memories even when synapses and spines are lost (for example, during hibernation)" Interesting; do you have any links to those papers with more information?
- return0 11y ago
  http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/memories-may-not-live-in-neurons-synapses/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/memories-may-not-l... http://elifesciences.org/content/3/e03896v2 http://elifesciences.org/content/3/e03896v2
ridgeguy 11y ago
Can you give a link to the Canadian tDCS study? I Googled, but no joy. Tnx.
- ridgeguy 11y ago
  Replying to myself to say I found a link [1]. Thank you for the info. [1] https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02386670 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02386670
gojomo 11y ago
Thanks for commenting, in any case, from a position of expertise! Just curious, in such experiments, how does the 'blue light' reach interior cells? Is it simply of such intensity, from an external source, that it penetrates deeply through tissue into the mice skulls? (A bit like a flashlight-through-a-hand?) Or, is the light source somehow inserted to be close to the cells (even under the skull)?
- jdpigeon 11y ago
  The LEDs are typically surgically implanted into the brain
  - gojomo 11y ago
    Wow, thanks.
BlytheSchuma 11y ago
How far are we from actually reading and copying memory? 50? 100 years?
- Razengan 11y ago
  And how far still from editing bad experiences out from memory, replacing them with pleasant ones that never happened, and freely moving that memory across customized bodies? In other words, the future depicted in this weirdly charming and underrated anime: http://myanimelist.net/anime/3701/Kaiba http://myanimelist.net/anime/3701/Kaiba Good stuff, just be wary of spoilers.
  - snowwrestler 11y ago
    Given what we think we know about how memory works, we're probably much closer to editing out bad memories than we are to copying memories across bodies. I say that because there does not seem to be a non-interactive way to recall memories. Every time a person experiences a memory (remembers), they also alter that memory. Researchers have been able to fairly easily alter or implant memories simply by suggesting the changes to subjects while they are in the process of remembering. It sort of makes sense--the moment of remembering is itself a memorable moment, and so the brain updates or replaces the original memory with what was recalled the most recent time. If the recall was messy, the old memory will now be messy too.
  - return0 11y ago
    A very very crude version of this has been done in mice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25162525 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25162525
tetha 11y ago
I find it really interesting how often neuro-science reminds me of work. This apparently means that the brain has some kind of equivalent to a partitioning table of a hard drive, and if that's botched, it becomes hard to find the data on the disk again. It's still there, but good luck figuring out where the file starts.

ZeroFries 11y ago

As in the cells store enough information to recreate those synapses when needed?

azernik 11y ago
Not an expert; what I think jdpigeon is referring to, though, is that the information storage is just fine, even if the indexing mechanisms aren't. Like recovering data from a broken filesystem - the directory structure is lost and for a normal usecase the data might as well be gone, but a lot of the content is theoretically there and recoverable if some indexing system (even one different from the original) can be created.
jdpigeon 11y ago
Yes! It hasn't been demonstrated in mammals, but in the elife paper linked above, I think they saw synapses regrowing in the same positions. However, its not clear if it's actually necessary for them to be in the same position.

bradneuberg 11y ago

"There's been some other papers recently showing the persistence of memories even when synapses and spines are lost (for example, during hibernation)" Interesting; do you have any links to those papers with more information?

return0 11y ago
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/memories-may-not-live-in-neurons-synapses/ http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/memories-may-not-l... http://elifesciences.org/content/3/e03896v2 http://elifesciences.org/content/3/e03896v2

ridgeguy 11y ago

Can you give a link to the Canadian tDCS study? I Googled, but no joy. Tnx.

ridgeguy 11y ago
Replying to myself to say I found a link [1]. Thank you for the info. [1] https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02386670 https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT02386670

gojomo 11y ago

Thanks for commenting, in any case, from a position of expertise! Just curious, in such experiments, how does the 'blue light' reach interior cells? Is it simply of such intensity, from an external source, that it penetrates deeply through tissue into the mice skulls? (A bit like a flashlight-through-a-hand?) Or, is the light source somehow inserted to be close to the cells (even under the skull)?

jdpigeon 11y ago
The LEDs are typically surgically implanted into the brain
- gojomo 11y ago
  Wow, thanks.

BlytheSchuma 11y ago

How far are we from actually reading and copying memory? 50? 100 years?

Razengan 11y ago
And how far still from editing bad experiences out from memory, replacing them with pleasant ones that never happened, and freely moving that memory across customized bodies? In other words, the future depicted in this weirdly charming and underrated anime: http://myanimelist.net/anime/3701/Kaiba http://myanimelist.net/anime/3701/Kaiba Good stuff, just be wary of spoilers.
- snowwrestler 11y ago
  Given what we think we know about how memory works, we're probably much closer to editing out bad memories than we are to copying memories across bodies. I say that because there does not seem to be a non-interactive way to recall memories. Every time a person experiences a memory (remembers), they also alter that memory. Researchers have been able to fairly easily alter or implant memories simply by suggesting the changes to subjects while they are in the process of remembering. It sort of makes sense--the moment of remembering is itself a memorable moment, and so the brain updates or replaces the original memory with what was recalled the most recent time. If the recall was messy, the old memory will now be messy too.
- return0 11y ago
  A very very crude version of this has been done in mice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25162525 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25162525

tetha 11y ago

I find it really interesting how often neuro-science reminds me of work. This apparently means that the brain has some kind of equivalent to a partitioning table of a hard drive, and if that's botched, it becomes hard to find the data on the disk again. It's still there, but good luck figuring out where the file starts.