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Take note fellow engineers: There is an effort from our industry, our government and our educational institutions to bring in more foreign students and keep the

Take note fellow engineers: There is an effort from our industry, our government and our educational institutions to bring in more foreign students and keep them here. They are cheaper than you and will always be younger than you.

saint_fiasco 11y ago
Are they more competent than you? If they are not, you have little to worry about. If they are, they deserve your job.
- hvs 11y ago
  They don't have to be more competent if they are cheaper. Assuming that companies always hire the "best" for the job is naive.
  - saint_fiasco 11y ago
    That they don't hire the best individual doesn't mean they don't hire the best team. Sometimes the cheap inexperienced developer is the best investment and you are not. In that situation the cheap inexperienced guy deserves the job and you don't. If the company makes a mistake, that is, they think they need a cheap inexperienced guy when in fact they need a 100% American-born-and-raised engineer, that company will be outcompeted by the ones who better know what they need.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    - hvs 11y ago
      Yes, if people were reducible to a specific set of data points and the world worked on perfect knowledge and optimally efficiently, that would be true.
- ones_and_zeros 11y ago
  > Are they more competent than you? no.[0] It's purely a money thing. I don't fault our industry, I do fault our government for bending over backward for them. Besides, I'd rather our industry and government focus on filling those classrooms with Americans and hiring Americans first. But it's a self fulfilling prophecy and I just want to start a conversation because I think that this "career" may not be the best if you are at all capable. [0] http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-best-brightest-immigration-policy/ http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-best-b...
  - duaneb 11y ago
    Agreed. The H1B push seems to be solving a short term problem while leaving our domestic educational problems unaddressed.
    - saint_fiasco 11y ago
      America already has many of the best Universities in the world. From looking at international rankings it looks like the domestic educational problems are more in the middle and high-school level. The Universities are doing great.
      - elevenfist 11y ago
        Professors across the country (three West coast, two east coast, one sw) have told me that undergrad is going to shit actually, but grad school is still ok for now.
        saint_fiasco 11y ago
        Shitty high-school means unprepared undergrad students, which means comparatively better foreign students.
        elevenfist 11y ago
        More honest professors admit that it's universities that are really dropping the ball.
- HillaryBriss 11y ago
  It's an interesting viewpoint, and consistent with a pure free market theory of labor I guess. But, other viewpoints might well be adopted when it comes to labor. The government does constrain companies in other domains. Companies are subjected to pollution laws, tax laws, building codes/regulations/approvals, higher utility rates, incorporation fees, and industry specific rules (look at pharmaceutical companies and health insurers). But, if the government requires companies to commit to training and giving hiring preference to the existing local employee base over people from outside the country (people who can't and don't vote in US elections) -- is that indefensible?
  - saint_fiasco 11y ago
    I'm sure it's defensible. In a free country you can defend anything you want. But it certainly seems unfair because it makes a feedback loop that keeps people who are in most need of jobs from getting those jobs, even in the hypothetical case where they are more cheap, more competent, or at least less incompetent than they are cheap.
    - HillaryBriss 11y ago
      Then it looks like the components of proper job allocation are competency and need, subject to whatever regulations (if any) a democratically elected government imposes. It's not hard to imagine situations where someone who is the most competent person for a job would not get the job because someone who needs the job more should get it. And, come to think of it, the government would probably be involved in the definition of "need" too. So that's a new regulation I guess. Elected lawmakers would be subjected to the will of the voters on that issue too.
- falsestprophet 11y ago
  Does my landscaper deserve his job when I'd rather hire a peasant from the Congo to do the job for a handful of rice?
  - saint_fiasco 11y ago
    If the Congolese peasant can do the job about as well as the landscaper it would be almost evil not to hire him. If he is really willing to receive a handful of rice as payment he may be in a position where he will die if you don't hire him! Of course if your landscaper is better at the job you shouldn't feel obligated to hire the Congolese person just so he doesn't starve.
asfakeaccount 11y ago
Students will always be younger than you. The foreign aspect doesn't change it. If we had solid immigration programs that gave an easier route to permanent residency and didn't make work visa applicants indentured to their employer foreign engineers would be demanding higher salaries and the wage gape would reduce. The current system makes it easy to kick out foreigners so they know their savings are going back to their home country so they don't care as much. Also, they can't play the job market because their visa status is largely tied to their employer. If we introduced some simple policy reform (and overhauled the H-1 program) the whole foreigners cutting wages issue would go away.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  > If we introduced some simple policy reform (and overhauled the H-1 program) the whole foreigners cutting wages issue would go away. As always, I encourage everyone here to first politely call, and barring that, politically rage against their elected representatives to enact the change they want to see. I do my part daily. Please do yours.
fweespee_ch 11y ago
I do not care if they are cheaper and younger as long as they are competent. If the standards and the process is the same, they are welcome to learn, assimilate, stay, and earn a living.
gozur88 11y ago
But that's not why colleges like foreign students. This is about state schools bringing on "out of state" students who're paying full freight.
- scott_s 11y ago
  Agreed to the point that I find ones_and_zeros' comment a complete non-sequitur. The entire article is about American colleges recruiting Chinese students who can pay full tuition. Such students are likely to be wealthier than their classmates. And most of the article was about assimilation problems, which implies that these students are not likely to stay in the US.
  - newman314 11y ago
    China actually has government resources dedicated to this. I met a fellow (I won't go into more detail but he was pretty high up in the food chain) while ago whose job was to go to the US and "encourage" Chinese students to return post-graduation.
tptacek 11y ago
Take note, fellow engineers: you are participating in a market, and the market will do what it can to increase supply. Increased supply will always be in the market's best interests, but not always in yours. Plan accordingly.
- maxxxxx 11y ago
  Especially since the market is rigged against workers.
- hkmurakami 11y ago
  My fellow engineers seem to favor restricting supply for the market where they are on the supply side (labor market) but also favor increasing supply for the market where they are on the demand side (housing). A great display of the human condition for pursuing self interest. (Hey I think it's rational to take both these positions at once too)
  - moistgorilla 11y ago
    The only self-interest you seem to be pursuing is the self-interest of business owners. Targeted immigration at a specific field is wealth redistribution from people that compete with immigrants to people that do not (ie, the person that hires you). So when you talk about that I should be selfless for the workers around the world that want my job, I pretty much know what side of the table you stand on. You are either A. A foreign worker B. an employer or C. have some broader social agenda So stop criticizing workers for wanting to protect their self interest because everyone has their own agenda they want to forward edit: changed it to be less rude
    - tptacek 11y ago
      First, do not accuse HN commenters of shilling for their own economic agenda. There are 18 zillion different forms of message board incivility, and accusations of bad faith commenting are one of the minuscule few than the site bans overtly. Second, if you oppose immigration on the grounds that it increases supply, lowers prices, and thus reduces wages for tech workers, do you oppose everything else that does that? Should we educate fewer tech workers? Should we do fewer things to spot underutilized tech talent? Should we have fewer remote-friendly offices, so that we can constrict the market down to only those people who are willing to live in tech hubs? Where do you draw the line?
jorgecurio 11y ago
Another way of putting this is: Don't plan on a job security in this century by being part of the cost center of a business.
shas3 11y ago
HN conversations, on the whole have almost none of the bigotry (racism, homophobia, misogyny) of other forums. Yet, thread after thread seems to contain xenophobic posts. Usually it is in discussions about H1B or foreign students in the US. It is unfortunate that a generally well-educated crowd has these bad apples. I have linked to offensive conversations in my comments elsewhere on HN about this and I won't belabor.
- hkmurakami 11y ago
  Well I give the benefit of the doubt and assume that the motivation is primarily economic rather than xenophobic.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  >HN conversations, on the whole have almost none of the bigotry (racism, homophobia, misogyny) of other forums. People are people. Xenophobia just happens to be the discrimination that this community accepts.
  - dang 11y ago
    This community is divided on some of these issues but it's not fair to say that it "accepts" xenophobia.
    - forgetsusername 11y ago
      Perhaps you do not accept it, and have some rank around here. But I think it's accepted generally. Of course no one will admit as much. I'm sure you're following these threads. They're filled with xenophobia. For example, in an article covering similar material currently on the front page, the top comment calls H1Bs "scabs", and it is unquestioned. Contrast this with when someone criticizes some feminist policy on these boards; they're called out pretty quickly. Being thought of as "sexist" is taboo in SV; being a "xenophobe" is just patriotic. This is just one of many "communities" I frequent. HN is very self-righteous about the level of conversation and discourse here. For the most part, it's pretty good. But introduce the right topic, and you'll quickly realize that the people here can stoop pretty low.
yongjik 11y ago
...and, soon enough, they will be you, arguing how America used to be greater, and how the newcomers are threatening to change the society their generation worked so hard to build. The cycle continues.
forgetsusername 11y ago
>Take note fellow engineers You realize some of those fellow engineers are Chinese, right? And Indian, British, Canadian, Brazilian... What makes you any more deserving of work?

saint_fiasco 11y ago

Are they more competent than you? If they are not, you have little to worry about. If they are, they deserve your job.

hvs 11y ago
They don't have to be more competent if they are cheaper. Assuming that companies always hire the "best" for the job is naive.
- saint_fiasco 11y ago
  That they don't hire the best individual doesn't mean they don't hire the best team. Sometimes the cheap inexperienced developer is the best investment and you are not. In that situation the cheap inexperienced guy deserves the job and you don't. If the company makes a mistake, that is, they think they need a cheap inexperienced guy when in fact they need a 100% American-born-and-raised engineer, that company will be outcompeted by the ones who better know what they need.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - hvs 11y ago
    Yes, if people were reducible to a specific set of data points and the world worked on perfect knowledge and optimally efficiently, that would be true.
ones_and_zeros 11y ago
> Are they more competent than you? no.[0] It's purely a money thing. I don't fault our industry, I do fault our government for bending over backward for them. Besides, I'd rather our industry and government focus on filling those classrooms with Americans and hiring Americans first. But it's a self fulfilling prophecy and I just want to start a conversation because I think that this "career" may not be the best if you are at all capable. [0] http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-best-brightest-immigration-policy/ http://www.epi.org/publication/bp356-foreign-students-best-b...
- duaneb 11y ago
  Agreed. The H1B push seems to be solving a short term problem while leaving our domestic educational problems unaddressed.
  - saint_fiasco 11y ago
    America already has many of the best Universities in the world. From looking at international rankings it looks like the domestic educational problems are more in the middle and high-school level. The Universities are doing great.
    - elevenfist 11y ago
      Professors across the country (three West coast, two east coast, one sw) have told me that undergrad is going to shit actually, but grad school is still ok for now.
      - saint_fiasco 11y ago
        Shitty high-school means unprepared undergrad students, which means comparatively better foreign students.
        elevenfist 11y ago
        More honest professors admit that it's universities that are really dropping the ball.
HillaryBriss 11y ago
It's an interesting viewpoint, and consistent with a pure free market theory of labor I guess. But, other viewpoints might well be adopted when it comes to labor. The government does constrain companies in other domains. Companies are subjected to pollution laws, tax laws, building codes/regulations/approvals, higher utility rates, incorporation fees, and industry specific rules (look at pharmaceutical companies and health insurers). But, if the government requires companies to commit to training and giving hiring preference to the existing local employee base over people from outside the country (people who can't and don't vote in US elections) -- is that indefensible?
- saint_fiasco 11y ago
  I'm sure it's defensible. In a free country you can defend anything you want. But it certainly seems unfair because it makes a feedback loop that keeps people who are in most need of jobs from getting those jobs, even in the hypothetical case where they are more cheap, more competent, or at least less incompetent than they are cheap.
  - HillaryBriss 11y ago
    Then it looks like the components of proper job allocation are competency and need, subject to whatever regulations (if any) a democratically elected government imposes. It's not hard to imagine situations where someone who is the most competent person for a job would not get the job because someone who needs the job more should get it. And, come to think of it, the government would probably be involved in the definition of "need" too. So that's a new regulation I guess. Elected lawmakers would be subjected to the will of the voters on that issue too.
falsestprophet 11y ago
Does my landscaper deserve his job when I'd rather hire a peasant from the Congo to do the job for a handful of rice?
- saint_fiasco 11y ago
  If the Congolese peasant can do the job about as well as the landscaper it would be almost evil not to hire him. If he is really willing to receive a handful of rice as payment he may be in a position where he will die if you don't hire him! Of course if your landscaper is better at the job you shouldn't feel obligated to hire the Congolese person just so he doesn't starve.

asfakeaccount 11y ago

Students will always be younger than you. The foreign aspect doesn't change it. If we had solid immigration programs that gave an easier route to permanent residency and didn't make work visa applicants indentured to their employer foreign engineers would be demanding higher salaries and the wage gape would reduce. The current system makes it easy to kick out foreigners so they know their savings are going back to their home country so they don't care as much. Also, they can't play the job market because their visa status is largely tied to their employer. If we introduced some simple policy reform (and overhauled the H-1 program) the whole foreigners cutting wages issue would go away.

toomuchtodo 11y ago
> If we introduced some simple policy reform (and overhauled the H-1 program) the whole foreigners cutting wages issue would go away. As always, I encourage everyone here to first politely call, and barring that, politically rage against their elected representatives to enact the change they want to see. I do my part daily. Please do yours.

fweespee_ch 11y ago

I do not care if they are cheaper and younger as long as they are competent. If the standards and the process is the same, they are welcome to learn, assimilate, stay, and earn a living.

gozur88 11y ago

But that's not why colleges like foreign students. This is about state schools bringing on "out of state" students who're paying full freight.

scott_s 11y ago
Agreed to the point that I find ones_and_zeros' comment a complete non-sequitur. The entire article is about American colleges recruiting Chinese students who can pay full tuition. Such students are likely to be wealthier than their classmates. And most of the article was about assimilation problems, which implies that these students are not likely to stay in the US.
- newman314 11y ago
  China actually has government resources dedicated to this. I met a fellow (I won't go into more detail but he was pretty high up in the food chain) while ago whose job was to go to the US and "encourage" Chinese students to return post-graduation.

tptacek 11y ago

Take note, fellow engineers: you are participating in a market, and the market will do what it can to increase supply. Increased supply will always be in the market's best interests, but not always in yours. Plan accordingly.

maxxxxx 11y ago
Especially since the market is rigged against workers.
hkmurakami 11y ago
My fellow engineers seem to favor restricting supply for the market where they are on the supply side (labor market) but also favor increasing supply for the market where they are on the demand side (housing). A great display of the human condition for pursuing self interest. (Hey I think it's rational to take both these positions at once too)
- moistgorilla 11y ago
  The only self-interest you seem to be pursuing is the self-interest of business owners. Targeted immigration at a specific field is wealth redistribution from people that compete with immigrants to people that do not (ie, the person that hires you). So when you talk about that I should be selfless for the workers around the world that want my job, I pretty much know what side of the table you stand on. You are either A. A foreign worker B. an employer or C. have some broader social agenda So stop criticizing workers for wanting to protect their self interest because everyone has their own agenda they want to forward edit: changed it to be less rude
  - tptacek 11y ago
    First, do not accuse HN commenters of shilling for their own economic agenda. There are 18 zillion different forms of message board incivility, and accusations of bad faith commenting are one of the minuscule few than the site bans overtly. Second, if you oppose immigration on the grounds that it increases supply, lowers prices, and thus reduces wages for tech workers, do you oppose everything else that does that? Should we educate fewer tech workers? Should we do fewer things to spot underutilized tech talent? Should we have fewer remote-friendly offices, so that we can constrict the market down to only those people who are willing to live in tech hubs? Where do you draw the line?

jorgecurio 11y ago

Another way of putting this is: Don't plan on a job security in this century by being part of the cost center of a business.

shas3 11y ago

HN conversations, on the whole have almost none of the bigotry (racism, homophobia, misogyny) of other forums. Yet, thread after thread seems to contain xenophobic posts. Usually it is in discussions about H1B or foreign students in the US. It is unfortunate that a generally well-educated crowd has these bad apples. I have linked to offensive conversations in my comments elsewhere on HN about this and I won't belabor.

hkmurakami 11y ago
Well I give the benefit of the doubt and assume that the motivation is primarily economic rather than xenophobic.
forgetsusername 11y ago
>HN conversations, on the whole have almost none of the bigotry (racism, homophobia, misogyny) of other forums. People are people. Xenophobia just happens to be the discrimination that this community accepts.
- dang 11y ago
  This community is divided on some of these issues but it's not fair to say that it "accepts" xenophobia.
  - forgetsusername 11y ago
    Perhaps you do not accept it, and have some rank around here. But I think it's accepted generally. Of course no one will admit as much. I'm sure you're following these threads. They're filled with xenophobia. For example, in an article covering similar material currently on the front page, the top comment calls H1Bs "scabs", and it is unquestioned. Contrast this with when someone criticizes some feminist policy on these boards; they're called out pretty quickly. Being thought of as "sexist" is taboo in SV; being a "xenophobe" is just patriotic. This is just one of many "communities" I frequent. HN is very self-righteous about the level of conversation and discourse here. For the most part, it's pretty good. But introduce the right topic, and you'll quickly realize that the people here can stoop pretty low.

yongjik 11y ago

...and, soon enough, they will be you, arguing how America used to be greater, and how the newcomers are threatening to change the society their generation worked so hard to build. The cycle continues.

forgetsusername 11y ago

>Take note fellow engineers You realize some of those fellow engineers are Chinese, right? And Indian, British, Canadian, Brazilian... What makes you any more deserving of work?