4 ms·

you mean the business of education is following the money and not focusing on spoiled American students who want their cake and eat it too? Follow the money. E

by pigpaws 11y ago

you mean the business of education is following the money and not focusing on spoiled American students who want their cake and eat it too? Follow the money. Education is a business model, no matter the economic model of the country.

duaneb 11y ago
> Education is a business model This is from a country that pioneered universal public education. This attitude disgusts me—the exact same arguments apply to health insurance companies. It's a social good with immense effect on our society, and yet we still attempt to drain money from our neighbors to justify its existence. This is the type of attitude that allows an elite upper class and inspires Trump-esque populist angst. The economy should never be the country's primary concern but balanced with all the citizens' needs.
- pigpaws 11y ago
  Then it seems that you are easily disgusted. You let me know when the "tenured" professors decide to give up their $150k salaries with months-long "sabbaticals". The "Education System" is basically the "Liberal's" version of the MIC.
  - duaneb 11y ago
    > You let me know when the "tenured" professors decide to give up their $150k salaries with months-long "sabbaticals". The vast majority of professors make crap money (unless you're a research prof or work at an elite liberal arts college). Sabbaticals are often for a full year. The problem with education has nothing to do with the wage of the professors—we already can't afford to pay them what they're worth. > The "Education System" is basically the "Liberal's" version of the MIC. I can't understand this sentence. What did anything you have to say do with anything I had to say?
    - pigpaws 11y ago
      first, define "crap money". Professors work 8-9 months out of the year. for most, their jobs are protected (tenure), which doesn't exist in the real world. Lets not even get into the educational closed-loop many exist in. (3rd-Century Romanian literature will always be 3rd-Century Romanian Lit.) The problem with education has everything to do with the money the schools have, how they get it and what they do with it - including pay for professors and janitors alike. When the Gov't started giving out 'free money' for student loans, the cost of education went up. why? not because the staff is virtuous and the presidents are moral stalwarts. Its because everyone wants a new car and a flat screen, 4k TV. http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13711.pdf http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13711.pdf I mentioned the MIC because you brought up politics and class differences re: the FACT that education is a business model. like anything else, it is led around by it nose (money). While I can not say that its the best model, i can say I'm not going to pay for someone's X-year degree(s) in 3rd-Century Romanian literature - nor should I be forced to - that is the very opposite of Liberty. Harvard has a $36 BILLION endowment and yet the costs keep going up. WHY? Education SHOULD be one of those things we look up to in society, but unless there is better motivating factor to do so, it will not happen. But then, who says formal education is the ONLY way to get educated? http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2015/10/06/10-universities-with-the-largest-endowments http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list... http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/27/pf/college/largest-college-endowments/ http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/27/pf/college/largest-college-e...
vorg 11y ago
Looks like the U.S. is now copying what Canada, Australia, and New Zealand started doing around 1990. Not only do they get the international education dollars, but they also get their residential property market going up again, with the flow on effects on rents and house prices. Expect the U.S. laws to change to make it easier for international students to get a job in the U.S. and eventually stay permanently, just like what happened in Canada, Australia, and NZ.
- whybroke 11y ago
  > ...they also get their residential property market going up... Of all the problems the US faces, excessively _low_ housing costs is not one of them. Indeed, if the effect would be to raise housing costs then this alone would be a reason to rethink the policy.
  - vorg 11y ago
    The effect will be to raise housing costs because that profits people who invest in houses. Voters want to get a job, borrow to buy a house, then sell it at a huge gain so they can retire early. U.S. voters are just like those in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and since the 2008 crash, will vote to restrict housing supply via zoning laws and boost buyer and renter supply via international students, and the flow-on effects in immigration and tourism -- students who graduate want to get a job and stay, and their families back home will come visit them -- just like what happened in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
    - whybroke 11y ago
      Not just speculating land owners but also the financial institutions profiting from issuing mortgages whose influence on policy is obviously enormous. And while loosening zoning laws wouldn't hurt, there has not been any radical increase in such laws over the last 20 years, certainly not across the whole nation. Yet housing prices have sky rocketed over the same period, even in areas where zoning is lax. So, while it may help some, a real solution is evidently not going to be as facile as some re-zoning.
jorgecurio 11y ago
Maybe in Murica. Selling ovaries, shooting porno videos, sex work, stripping. These are the opportunities available to young American students. If they were in Germany, they would've gotten into a good tradeship or university all paid for without having to succumb to transgressive career choices just so they can support themselves through an expensive and horribly faulty notion that education is a business just like trading stocks.
- aianus 11y ago
  > succumb to transgressive career choices just so they can support themselves through an expensive and horribly faulty notion that education is a business just like trading stocks. Or, you know, you could borrow the money to study and then get a high-paying job in NYC or SF, pay it all back in less than three years, and enjoy low taxes for the rest of your 40 year career. The U.S. system is polarizing, for better (if you're lucky / don't fuck up) or for worse.
  - jorgecurio 11y ago
    borrowing money means you need credit which lot of young adults don't have. don't assume everyone else has the same options as you.
    - Armisael16 11y ago
      You asserted that no one had good options. You're pretty clearly wrong.
      - jorgecurio 11y ago
        compared to university students in Germany and France? please tell me a German university student who sold their ovaries or body to fund their education. oh thats right it's all paid for. lets not forget the quarter of a million dollar student loans that they will be forced to pay for. Pretty sure that's nothing couple years of work and all paid for right? seriously America is too ghetto for university students, you have to literally fend for your self while in Europe the state recognizes the value in investing in university students through a national program. After all, much of the innovation comes from such institution. Maybe not so far America since they import all of the talent anyways starting from WW2 days also explains why startup founders are overwhelmingly are immigrants. There just isn't enough American students from American universities thriving apart from exclusive ivy league lucky sperm club (being a navajo or hispanic applicant certainly helps) while barring Asian Americans because the 'yellow peril' is taking over the campus.
elevenfist 11y ago
Then they should be taxed like businesses. Higher education has a responsibility that includes not catering to cheaters because they pay more. Universities can lower their costs, this is a cash/land grab where public resources are likeky being burned for some administrator's gain.

by pigpaws 11y ago

duaneb 11y ago

> Education is a business model This is from a country that pioneered universal public education. This attitude disgusts me—the exact same arguments apply to health insurance companies. It's a social good with immense effect on our society, and yet we still attempt to drain money from our neighbors to justify its existence. This is the type of attitude that allows an elite upper class and inspires Trump-esque populist angst. The economy should never be the country's primary concern but balanced with all the citizens' needs.

pigpaws 11y ago
Then it seems that you are easily disgusted. You let me know when the "tenured" professors decide to give up their $150k salaries with months-long "sabbaticals". The "Education System" is basically the "Liberal's" version of the MIC.
- duaneb 11y ago
  > You let me know when the "tenured" professors decide to give up their $150k salaries with months-long "sabbaticals". The vast majority of professors make crap money (unless you're a research prof or work at an elite liberal arts college). Sabbaticals are often for a full year. The problem with education has nothing to do with the wage of the professors—we already can't afford to pay them what they're worth. > The "Education System" is basically the "Liberal's" version of the MIC. I can't understand this sentence. What did anything you have to say do with anything I had to say?
  - pigpaws 11y ago
    first, define "crap money". Professors work 8-9 months out of the year. for most, their jobs are protected (tenure), which doesn't exist in the real world. Lets not even get into the educational closed-loop many exist in. (3rd-Century Romanian literature will always be 3rd-Century Romanian Lit.) The problem with education has everything to do with the money the schools have, how they get it and what they do with it - including pay for professors and janitors alike. When the Gov't started giving out 'free money' for student loans, the cost of education went up. why? not because the staff is virtuous and the presidents are moral stalwarts. Its because everyone wants a new car and a flat screen, 4k TV. http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13711.pdf http://www.nber.org/chapters/c13711.pdf I mentioned the MIC because you brought up politics and class differences re: the FACT that education is a business model. like anything else, it is led around by it nose (money). While I can not say that its the best model, i can say I'm not going to pay for someone's X-year degree(s) in 3rd-Century Romanian literature - nor should I be forced to - that is the very opposite of Liberty. Harvard has a $36 BILLION endowment and yet the costs keep going up. WHY? Education SHOULD be one of those things we look up to in society, but unless there is better motivating factor to do so, it will not happen. But then, who says formal education is the ONLY way to get educated? http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list-college/articles/2015/10/06/10-universities-with-the-largest-endowments http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/the-short-list... http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/27/pf/college/largest-college-endowments/ http://money.cnn.com/2016/01/27/pf/college/largest-college-e...

vorg 11y ago

Looks like the U.S. is now copying what Canada, Australia, and New Zealand started doing around 1990. Not only do they get the international education dollars, but they also get their residential property market going up again, with the flow on effects on rents and house prices. Expect the U.S. laws to change to make it easier for international students to get a job in the U.S. and eventually stay permanently, just like what happened in Canada, Australia, and NZ.

whybroke 11y ago
> ...they also get their residential property market going up... Of all the problems the US faces, excessively _low_ housing costs is not one of them. Indeed, if the effect would be to raise housing costs then this alone would be a reason to rethink the policy.
- vorg 11y ago
  The effect will be to raise housing costs because that profits people who invest in houses. Voters want to get a job, borrow to buy a house, then sell it at a huge gain so they can retire early. U.S. voters are just like those in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand, and since the 2008 crash, will vote to restrict housing supply via zoning laws and boost buyer and renter supply via international students, and the flow-on effects in immigration and tourism -- students who graduate want to get a job and stay, and their families back home will come visit them -- just like what happened in Canada, Australia, and New Zealand.
  - whybroke 11y ago
    Not just speculating land owners but also the financial institutions profiting from issuing mortgages whose influence on policy is obviously enormous. And while loosening zoning laws wouldn't hurt, there has not been any radical increase in such laws over the last 20 years, certainly not across the whole nation. Yet housing prices have sky rocketed over the same period, even in areas where zoning is lax. So, while it may help some, a real solution is evidently not going to be as facile as some re-zoning.

jorgecurio 11y ago

Maybe in Murica. Selling ovaries, shooting porno videos, sex work, stripping. These are the opportunities available to young American students. If they were in Germany, they would've gotten into a good tradeship or university all paid for without having to succumb to transgressive career choices just so they can support themselves through an expensive and horribly faulty notion that education is a business just like trading stocks.

aianus 11y ago
> succumb to transgressive career choices just so they can support themselves through an expensive and horribly faulty notion that education is a business just like trading stocks. Or, you know, you could borrow the money to study and then get a high-paying job in NYC or SF, pay it all back in less than three years, and enjoy low taxes for the rest of your 40 year career. The U.S. system is polarizing, for better (if you're lucky / don't fuck up) or for worse.
- jorgecurio 11y ago
  borrowing money means you need credit which lot of young adults don't have. don't assume everyone else has the same options as you.
  - Armisael16 11y ago
    You asserted that no one had good options. You're pretty clearly wrong.
    - jorgecurio 11y ago
      compared to university students in Germany and France? please tell me a German university student who sold their ovaries or body to fund their education. oh thats right it's all paid for. lets not forget the quarter of a million dollar student loans that they will be forced to pay for. Pretty sure that's nothing couple years of work and all paid for right? seriously America is too ghetto for university students, you have to literally fend for your self while in Europe the state recognizes the value in investing in university students through a national program. After all, much of the innovation comes from such institution. Maybe not so far America since they import all of the talent anyways starting from WW2 days also explains why startup founders are overwhelmingly are immigrants. There just isn't enough American students from American universities thriving apart from exclusive ivy league lucky sperm club (being a navajo or hispanic applicant certainly helps) while barring Asian Americans because the 'yellow peril' is taking over the campus.

elevenfist 11y ago

Then they should be taxed like businesses. Higher education has a responsibility that includes not catering to cheaters because they pay more. Universities can lower their costs, this is a cash/land grab where public resources are likeky being burned for some administrator's gain.