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Very interesting. The gender data for AP tests in particular, as it seems to suggest that there's a strong self-selection bias at work years before people start

Very interesting. The gender data for AP tests in particular, as it seems to suggest that there's a strong self-selection bias at work years before people start applying for tech jobs. Identifying the reasons behind that and persuading otherwise seems like a particularly important area for women in tech groups to focus on.

vonmoltke 11y ago
The only issue I have with the AP data is that it is so sparse. Based on the circle-sizing on that graph, the number of samples is tiny compared to the other subjects, and there is a definite bias for the outliers in both directions to be the tests with the fewest samples, while the tests with the most samples tend to converge on the parity line. My understanding is that AP computer science is basically on life support right now and may be dead entirely within the next few years. It is probably a poor metric for measuring early interest in computer science.
- jaykru 11y ago
  I'm a high school student taking AP CS right now. At least anecdotally, the main problems with the program are curriculum related and instructor related. The curriculum sadly is very fine-tuned to an obscure Java-dialect created specifically for the course. Though the program does teach basic principals of CS, there's a great deal of time wasted on this weird little platform; obviously, most high school students these days with technical inclinations would rather learn more open and directly applicable platforms to learn. The even greater problem though stems from the instruction, which I would argue is derived from the aim of the course itself. There's a very heavy focus on teaching to the test, as in the AP system teachers are rewarded for having high-scoring students. This means there's a lot of bland dissemination of facts and non-trivial projects are few and far between. Overall, as someone who plans to have a career in software, I've been really disappointed with the program. Supposedly there is a program launching in fall 2016 however: https://advancesinap.collegeboard.org/stem/computer-science-principles https://advancesinap.collegeboard.org/stem/computer-science-...
  - groovy2shoes 11y ago
    The thing is, there's so much more to computer science and even software than just programming. Many "CS" instructors don't even understand that! Data structures, algorithms, discrete mathematics, algebra, the list goes on. Yet, the AP CS curriculum seems to have been adapted from "Sams Teach Yourself Java in 21 Days" (at least, that was the case when I took it back in 2006). It's rudimentary coverage of the basics of programming in Java, along with some idiosyncrasies of Java syntax, and nothing else. Furthermore, the instruction mirrored the poor instruction in mathematics. "Here, memorize this template for writing a loop. Then, when the test asks you to write a loop, regurgitate it." Like too often in mathematics, there was no emphasis on understanding, but rather the emphasis was on rote memorization. With the combination of contrived examples, shallow coverage, and poor instruction, it should not be a surprise that so many students are disinterested in computer science. Not to mention that Java is an exceptionally poor choice for an introduction to programming (the AP curriculum used to use C++, which is also a very poor choice). (As a tutor, I've had good luck with Scheme, and I've heard from others that Python and Lua are also good choices. You could also kick it old-school with a structured BASIC dialect (which is how I cut my teeth) or Logo, if you can find a suitable implementation.)
    - nv-vn 11y ago
      Yep, I too think the class needs a total redesign. It fails to cover a lot of what actual computer science is for some poorly put together subset of Java taught as what's essentially magic (the same kind of problem with a lot of elementary math education). Sadly, the class has changed very little since it was first designed. Most of the course material hasn't been updated significantly by CollegeBoard since around 2005. I think they really should redesign it with a language more suitable for teaching basic computer science, like Scheme or Python. But even more so, they need to design the course to be more understandable to those without previous programming experience, because AFAICT 90%+ of the people who don't fail the AP exam with a 1 or 2 already know most of the course material coming into the class.
    - hdctambien 11y ago
      > he thing is, there's so much more to computer science and even software than just programming. Many "CS" instructors don't even understand that! Data structures, algorithms, discrete mathematics, algebra, the list goes on. That's completely correct. Although, it's because most "CS" instructors majored in english, history, or math in college. They were pushed into teaching computer science and sent to a "learn Java in 4 weeks" summer training. They are doing the best they can with what they know. We either need more computer science majors to take up teaching, or we need better training for non-computer science teachers to actually learn computer science (but not too good training, otherwise they might get a "real" job doing computer sciencey things)
bo1024 11y ago
I'm surprised it isn't clear to more people that we need to be addressing gender imbalances in CS at a much younger age. Anecdotally, many people get into computer science originally because they're interested in programming because they like the idea of, for a major instance, creating video games. Surprise, many of these kids are male. Added to this is a general STEM selection bias. So we need outreach about careers, opportunities, and the fun of CS and programming, much younger, and targeted at groups like girls who would otherwise be less likely to try it out on their own. Address our diversity issues from youth up rather than when it's too late.
- timje1 11y ago
  This NPR podcast posits that the source of the current male / female divide in computing began in the early 80s as a result of home computer and videogame marketing. It's definitely worth a listen. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...

vonmoltke 11y ago

The only issue I have with the AP data is that it is so sparse. Based on the circle-sizing on that graph, the number of samples is tiny compared to the other subjects, and there is a definite bias for the outliers in both directions to be the tests with the fewest samples, while the tests with the most samples tend to converge on the parity line. My understanding is that AP computer science is basically on life support right now and may be dead entirely within the next few years. It is probably a poor metric for measuring early interest in computer science.

jaykru 11y ago
I'm a high school student taking AP CS right now. At least anecdotally, the main problems with the program are curriculum related and instructor related. The curriculum sadly is very fine-tuned to an obscure Java-dialect created specifically for the course. Though the program does teach basic principals of CS, there's a great deal of time wasted on this weird little platform; obviously, most high school students these days with technical inclinations would rather learn more open and directly applicable platforms to learn. The even greater problem though stems from the instruction, which I would argue is derived from the aim of the course itself. There's a very heavy focus on teaching to the test, as in the AP system teachers are rewarded for having high-scoring students. This means there's a lot of bland dissemination of facts and non-trivial projects are few and far between. Overall, as someone who plans to have a career in software, I've been really disappointed with the program. Supposedly there is a program launching in fall 2016 however: https://advancesinap.collegeboard.org/stem/computer-science-principles https://advancesinap.collegeboard.org/stem/computer-science-...
- groovy2shoes 11y ago
  The thing is, there's so much more to computer science and even software than just programming. Many "CS" instructors don't even understand that! Data structures, algorithms, discrete mathematics, algebra, the list goes on. Yet, the AP CS curriculum seems to have been adapted from "Sams Teach Yourself Java in 21 Days" (at least, that was the case when I took it back in 2006). It's rudimentary coverage of the basics of programming in Java, along with some idiosyncrasies of Java syntax, and nothing else. Furthermore, the instruction mirrored the poor instruction in mathematics. "Here, memorize this template for writing a loop. Then, when the test asks you to write a loop, regurgitate it." Like too often in mathematics, there was no emphasis on understanding, but rather the emphasis was on rote memorization. With the combination of contrived examples, shallow coverage, and poor instruction, it should not be a surprise that so many students are disinterested in computer science. Not to mention that Java is an exceptionally poor choice for an introduction to programming (the AP curriculum used to use C++, which is also a very poor choice). (As a tutor, I've had good luck with Scheme, and I've heard from others that Python and Lua are also good choices. You could also kick it old-school with a structured BASIC dialect (which is how I cut my teeth) or Logo, if you can find a suitable implementation.)
  - nv-vn 11y ago
    Yep, I too think the class needs a total redesign. It fails to cover a lot of what actual computer science is for some poorly put together subset of Java taught as what's essentially magic (the same kind of problem with a lot of elementary math education). Sadly, the class has changed very little since it was first designed. Most of the course material hasn't been updated significantly by CollegeBoard since around 2005. I think they really should redesign it with a language more suitable for teaching basic computer science, like Scheme or Python. But even more so, they need to design the course to be more understandable to those without previous programming experience, because AFAICT 90%+ of the people who don't fail the AP exam with a 1 or 2 already know most of the course material coming into the class.
  - hdctambien 11y ago
    > he thing is, there's so much more to computer science and even software than just programming. Many "CS" instructors don't even understand that! Data structures, algorithms, discrete mathematics, algebra, the list goes on. That's completely correct. Although, it's because most "CS" instructors majored in english, history, or math in college. They were pushed into teaching computer science and sent to a "learn Java in 4 weeks" summer training. They are doing the best they can with what they know. We either need more computer science majors to take up teaching, or we need better training for non-computer science teachers to actually learn computer science (but not too good training, otherwise they might get a "real" job doing computer sciencey things)

bo1024 11y ago

I'm surprised it isn't clear to more people that we need to be addressing gender imbalances in CS at a much younger age. Anecdotally, many people get into computer science originally because they're interested in programming because they like the idea of, for a major instance, creating video games. Surprise, many of these kids are male. Added to this is a general STEM selection bias. So we need outreach about careers, opportunities, and the fun of CS and programming, much younger, and targeted at groups like girls who would otherwise be less likely to try it out on their own. Address our diversity issues from youth up rather than when it's too late.

timje1 11y ago
This NPR podcast posits that the source of the current male / female divide in computing began in the early 80s as a result of home computer and videogame marketing. It's definitely worth a listen. http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-women-stopped-coding http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/10/21/357629765/when-...