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Related anecdote: a friend of mine is an engineer that builds and operates glass factories all around the world, mostly producing bottles for beer, wine, and li

by hellcow 11y ago

Related anecdote: a friend of mine is an engineer that builds and operates glass factories all around the world, mostly producing bottles for beer, wine, and liquor. One of his company's factories was in Venezuela, and while he was there working, Chavez et co decided to nationalize that industry because they were "forcing unfair labor conditions." The company rushed to get every American out of the country before the military showed up and seized control of the factory. But as it turns out, making glass is hard and requires constant tuning and adjustment. None of the new Venezuelan managers had the expertise needed to continue glass production at anywhere close to the same levels of efficiency and quality. Thus the factory started to lose its ability to produce glass bottles at all. I can imagine a similar lead-up to this in Venezuela's power industry. Nationalization -> loss of expertise -> loss of efficiency -> national crisis.

seivan 11y ago
One thing that usually follows is the lack of consequences for bad decisions. I've noticed shareholders are more aligned with letting heads roll than politicians and voters unless it hits extremes. Most corporations would nip it in the bud early or die trying.
rafaelm 11y ago
That factory was Owens-Illinois? But what is happening here is because of massive corruption at every level of the government. They only nationalized one of the power companies (Electricidad de Caracas, only deals with power in the capital). The rest simply succumbed to corruption. Companies with ties to the military and government officials that sold a bunch of overpriced, refurbished power plants that don't work. The price per MW of the power plants built here is the highest in the world. I know because I used to work for a small Power Protection Systems contractor and we saw this from the inside. That and the reduction of the morale of even the lowest employee that saw the destruction and corruption from the inside.
- bedhead 11y ago
  The unimaginable corruption (as opposed to our run-of-the-mill corruption) is a symptom of a communistic/dictatorial government.
  - x5n1 11y ago
    Has nothing to do with Communism, and everything do with the rhetoric that follows this sort of approach towards governance, in which some idiot dictator uses Communist rhetoric to destroy the country by parceling out private corporations to his family and friends in the name of the people where he knows nothing about anything. The Soviet economy was perfectly functional until the very end. Chavez was a military dictator that knew shit all about running governments or about Communism or even Socialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union
    - nickik 11y ago
      > The Soviet economy was perfectly functional until the very end. You have never spent much time in the former Soviet Union have you? The Soviet Union could only survive because of its reliance on natural resources. They could not export exept to people they keeped under millitary controll and all of those tried to get western stuff if they could. The Soviets themself always imported lots of tech from the west, with the exeption of select industries like space they were behind. Read: - Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1917–1930 (1968) - Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1930–1945 (1971) - Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1945–1965 (1973) Internally the Soviet economy never functioned as claimed. The only reason it could survive at all is because illegal market makers would travel around and exchange resources between different factories.
  - markdown 11y ago
    It is also a symptom of a capitalistic/plutocratic government. The fact that the rich control the media (CNN/MSNBC etc all owned by Clinton donors, [nytimes also corrupt](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-new-york-times-sandbagged-bernie-sanders-20160315) http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-new-york-t...) and use their propaganda machine and [immense wealth](http://i.imgur.com/vUVatUt.png http://i.imgur.com/vUVatUt.png) to have their puppet elected... and then the biggest corruption machine in the world (creatively called "lobbying") gives your congress and senate bills to rubber-stamp... it's in a way worse than the Venezuela situation because at least Venezuela doesn't go out and kill thousands of (brown) people.
beatpanda 11y ago
What were the labor conditions like for the workers in the factories your friend was building?
- PhasmaFelis 11y ago
  Why is this getting downvoted? Edit: In for a penny, I suppose: why is this getting downvoted? I don't think "why is this getting downvoted" is a controversial question.
  - dang 11y ago
    It's utterly off-topic.
    - hobarrera 11y ago
      Topic is regarding Venezuela shutting down for a week since they can't cope with basic needs. Questioning factory working conditions is quite on-topic.
      - dang 11y ago
        I meant that "why is this getting downvoted" is off-topic, for any value of "this".
tiglionabbit 11y ago
Literally Atlas Shrugged. What was the name of the company?
- tim333 11y ago
  Sounds like this http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/27/world/la-fg-venezuela-nationalize-20101028 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/27/world/la-fg-venezuel...
MichaelGG 11y ago
A similar thing happened in Zimbabwe. Using a race-based system, they changed control of farms from one set of people to another (with rather strong rhetoric about how certain people would never be welcome again). Turns out a bit of experience was required, so they had to back down on that position: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/zimbabwe-seized-white-farmers-land-now-some-are-being-invited-back/2015/09/14/456f66d6-45d2-11e5-9f53-d1e3ddfd0cda_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/zimbabwe-seized-... The article indicates that Zimbabwe went from being an exporter of food to requiring food aid to prevent starvation. Zimbabwe just recently took over all diamond mines. Which sounds sorta OK in theory, but I can only imagine it's going to result in less official output and more corruption. Seems like they'd be better just insisting on very high fees.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- tim333 11y ago
  Venezuela has gone after farms as well. Similar results.
shard972 11y ago
Isn't it possible that the Americans sabotaged the factory on their way out?
- canes123456 11y ago
  Doubt it. You gain nothing but end up hurting regular people that have enough shortages already.

by hellcow 11y ago

seivan 11y ago

One thing that usually follows is the lack of consequences for bad decisions. I've noticed shareholders are more aligned with letting heads roll than politicians and voters unless it hits extremes. Most corporations would nip it in the bud early or die trying.

rafaelm 11y ago

That factory was Owens-Illinois? But what is happening here is because of massive corruption at every level of the government. They only nationalized one of the power companies (Electricidad de Caracas, only deals with power in the capital). The rest simply succumbed to corruption. Companies with ties to the military and government officials that sold a bunch of overpriced, refurbished power plants that don't work. The price per MW of the power plants built here is the highest in the world. I know because I used to work for a small Power Protection Systems contractor and we saw this from the inside. That and the reduction of the morale of even the lowest employee that saw the destruction and corruption from the inside.

bedhead 11y ago
The unimaginable corruption (as opposed to our run-of-the-mill corruption) is a symptom of a communistic/dictatorial government.
- x5n1 11y ago
  Has nothing to do with Communism, and everything do with the rhetoric that follows this sort of approach towards governance, in which some idiot dictator uses Communist rhetoric to destroy the country by parceling out private corporations to his family and friends in the name of the people where he knows nothing about anything. The Soviet economy was perfectly functional until the very end. Chavez was a military dictator that knew shit all about running governments or about Communism or even Socialism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_Soviet_Union
  - nickik 11y ago
    > The Soviet economy was perfectly functional until the very end. You have never spent much time in the former Soviet Union have you? The Soviet Union could only survive because of its reliance on natural resources. They could not export exept to people they keeped under millitary controll and all of those tried to get western stuff if they could. The Soviets themself always imported lots of tech from the west, with the exeption of select industries like space they were behind. Read: - Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1917–1930 (1968) - Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1930–1945 (1971) - Western Technology and Soviet Economic Development 1945–1965 (1973) Internally the Soviet economy never functioned as claimed. The only reason it could survive at all is because illegal market makers would travel around and exchange resources between different factories.
- markdown 11y ago
  It is also a symptom of a capitalistic/plutocratic government. The fact that the rich control the media (CNN/MSNBC etc all owned by Clinton donors, [nytimes also corrupt](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-new-york-times-sandbagged-bernie-sanders-20160315) http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-the-new-york-t...) and use their propaganda machine and [immense wealth](http://i.imgur.com/vUVatUt.png http://i.imgur.com/vUVatUt.png) to have their puppet elected... and then the biggest corruption machine in the world (creatively called "lobbying") gives your congress and senate bills to rubber-stamp... it's in a way worse than the Venezuela situation because at least Venezuela doesn't go out and kill thousands of (brown) people.

beatpanda 11y ago

What were the labor conditions like for the workers in the factories your friend was building?

PhasmaFelis 11y ago
Why is this getting downvoted? Edit: In for a penny, I suppose: why is this getting downvoted? I don't think "why is this getting downvoted" is a controversial question.
- dang 11y ago
  It's utterly off-topic.
  - hobarrera 11y ago
    Topic is regarding Venezuela shutting down for a week since they can't cope with basic needs. Questioning factory working conditions is quite on-topic.
    - dang 11y ago
      I meant that "why is this getting downvoted" is off-topic, for any value of "this".

tiglionabbit 11y ago

Literally Atlas Shrugged. What was the name of the company?

tim333 11y ago
Sounds like this http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/27/world/la-fg-venezuela-nationalize-20101028 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/27/world/la-fg-venezuel...

MichaelGG 11y ago

A similar thing happened in Zimbabwe. Using a race-based system, they changed control of farms from one set of people to another (with rather strong rhetoric about how certain people would never be welcome again). Turns out a bit of experience was required, so they had to back down on that position: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/zimbabwe-seized-white-farmers-land-now-some-are-being-invited-back/2015/09/14/456f66d6-45d2-11e5-9f53-d1e3ddfd0cda_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/zimbabwe-seized-... The article indicates that Zimbabwe went from being an exporter of food to requiring food aid to prevent starvation. Zimbabwe just recently took over all diamond mines. Which sounds sorta OK in theory, but I can only imagine it's going to result in less official output and more corruption. Seems like they'd be better just insisting on very high fees.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
tim333 11y ago
Venezuela has gone after farms as well. Similar results.

shard972 11y ago

Isn't it possible that the Americans sabotaged the factory on their way out?

canes123456 11y ago
Doubt it. You gain nothing but end up hurting regular people that have enough shortages already.