4 ms·

It's a difficult scenario and definitely an extreme example. It's hard to see what could have gone differently (apart from the family and employers being douche

by ErrantX 17y ago

It's a difficult scenario and definitely an extreme example. It's hard to see what could have gone differently (apart from the family and employers being douches)

jacquesm 17y ago
I would say that more than one piece of evidence would have to be brought before arresting someone, and they should have had a very good look at the counter-evidence, which was apparently already available at the time of the arrest. Very sloppy police work this, basically someones life got altered indelibly for something he really had nothing to do with. Just think of it, credit card numbers + matching expiry dates and CVVs are for sale in bulk on underground black markets, every piece of evidence found in a case as serious as this should be held to the highest standards before taking steps that can't be undone. Since his computer wasn't implicated at all before it was seized, if they had tried to tie the case to the guys IP they would have seen he had nothing to do with it immediately that shouldn't have happened at all. This was simply a fishing expedition and a mans life was changed in a very bad way because of it.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  What other information? An ip address? Not particularly relevant. In th case of indecent images the police are pretty much required to investigate with evidence of this type. Not doing so is just too dangerous all round for them. I'd say this was just one of the extreme cases your always going to come across. It sucks, lots. Edit: by required I mean its shaky legal ground not to pursue it aggressively. Especially if he suspect is a parent. If hey ignore it and it turns out the guy is guilty they are fucked, badly. The differing ip address is important but only circumstantial because ips are two a penny.
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    No, seriously, the fact that there was no other corroborating evidence means that there are NOT enough grounds for suspicion. A credit card number is way too easily jacked / faked / cloned. I've had it happen to me in a restaurant, before I finished my trip home (another 700 km drive) there had been a few thousand $ of online charges on the card. A credit card number is not an identity. If it isn't enough to cross a border with then it certainly shouldn't by itself be a reason for an investigation. Especially because in cases like these the chances of the perp using fraudulent information are substantially higher than when looking at the transactions for say amazon.com. Of course pedos are going to try to cover their tracks, using a stolen credit card number is a lesser crime considered to the one they are already committing so the barrier is a pretty low one.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      You would be surprised at the number that are caught using their own cc. The standard approach in such a case would be to ask the guy in (or arrest him if you were suspicious) and sieze the computers. Then you decide what to do depending on the interview. Rereading it maybe your right; it shouldn't have gone so far.
      - sailormoon 17y ago
        If someone is dumb enough to use their own cc then I hardly think they have the wherewithal to proxy the requests through indonesia. Rereading it maybe your right; it shouldn't have gone so far. Maybe you don't realise it, but you come across as amazingly blasé towards this miscarriage of justice. There is no "maybe" about it. And it shouldn't have gone anywhere at all. The state has fucked this guy's life up for no reason other than its own incompetence. I get the feeling that those in law enforcement are so brainwashed as to the monstrous nature of their "enemy" that they rationalise away "collateral damage" like this guy as a necessary evil.
        pyre 17y ago
        > I get the feeling that those in law enforcement are so brainwashed as to the monstrous nature of their "enemy" that they rationalise away "collateral damage" like this guy as a necessary evil. I'm sure that on some level they feel bad about it, but they find ways to rationalize it away so they they can continue their job, and the politicos in the department try to keep everyone hush-hush to avoid lawsuits and a PR storm if someone were to admit to a mistake.
        ErrantX 17y ago
        > but you come across as amazingly blasé towards this miscarriage of justice Sorry, not my intention. I dont think this is considered a "necessary evil". I think fuck ups and mistakes happen; yes this should be investigated (I have no idea if it has been) and it should be considered how to stop mistakes happening. I think this guy has been screwed by society and his employer as much as the system of law. It's an extreme case and we need to find ways for it not to occur. However I am also of the opinion that we shouldn't second guess what happened on the basis of a news article. It's hardly a complete investigation. We have no idea what happened; if there is an investigation then I personally would be happier forming an opinion :) At the end of the day it comes down to a wire choice for the investigator. Does he pursue this aggressively and risk tarnishing an innocents reputation. Or does he back off from his cases and risk letting a pedophile go free. The LE officers I know tread this line with skill and dedication: I dispute the idea that this mistake, a situation where the line was crossed in the wrong way, is representative of the entire picture. :)
zmmmmm 17y ago
> It's hard to see what could have gone differently Really??? It would have been trivial for them to check and see that the child porn was purchased in Indonesia they should have been able to do a very quick check on his border records and see that he did not visit there. Instead they were just lazy and cast a wide net and pulled everything in. I hope he considers suing them.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  > It would have been trivial for them to check and see that the child porn was purchased in Indonesia Not particularly trival. And more importantly accessing another IUP is trivial; there is common software for the purchase of this material that uses various random proxies to protect your location/identity. The fact the IP address is in Indonesia tells us very little; tracing the actual IP to a physical location is relatively hard and time consuming. There isnt the money available to do that.

by ErrantX 17y ago

It's a difficult scenario and definitely an extreme example. It's hard to see what could have gone differently (apart from the family and employers being douches)

jacquesm 17y ago

I would say that more than one piece of evidence would have to be brought before arresting someone, and they should have had a very good look at the counter-evidence, which was apparently already available at the time of the arrest. Very sloppy police work this, basically someones life got altered indelibly for something he really had nothing to do with. Just think of it, credit card numbers + matching expiry dates and CVVs are for sale in bulk on underground black markets, every piece of evidence found in a case as serious as this should be held to the highest standards before taking steps that can't be undone. Since his computer wasn't implicated at all before it was seized, if they had tried to tie the case to the guys IP they would have seen he had nothing to do with it immediately that shouldn't have happened at all. This was simply a fishing expedition and a mans life was changed in a very bad way because of it.

ErrantX 17y ago
What other information? An ip address? Not particularly relevant. In th case of indecent images the police are pretty much required to investigate with evidence of this type. Not doing so is just too dangerous all round for them. I'd say this was just one of the extreme cases your always going to come across. It sucks, lots. Edit: by required I mean its shaky legal ground not to pursue it aggressively. Especially if he suspect is a parent. If hey ignore it and it turns out the guy is guilty they are fucked, badly. The differing ip address is important but only circumstantial because ips are two a penny.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  No, seriously, the fact that there was no other corroborating evidence means that there are NOT enough grounds for suspicion. A credit card number is way too easily jacked / faked / cloned. I've had it happen to me in a restaurant, before I finished my trip home (another 700 km drive) there had been a few thousand $ of online charges on the card. A credit card number is not an identity. If it isn't enough to cross a border with then it certainly shouldn't by itself be a reason for an investigation. Especially because in cases like these the chances of the perp using fraudulent information are substantially higher than when looking at the transactions for say amazon.com. Of course pedos are going to try to cover their tracks, using a stolen credit card number is a lesser crime considered to the one they are already committing so the barrier is a pretty low one.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    You would be surprised at the number that are caught using their own cc. The standard approach in such a case would be to ask the guy in (or arrest him if you were suspicious) and sieze the computers. Then you decide what to do depending on the interview. Rereading it maybe your right; it shouldn't have gone so far.
    - sailormoon 17y ago
      If someone is dumb enough to use their own cc then I hardly think they have the wherewithal to proxy the requests through indonesia. Rereading it maybe your right; it shouldn't have gone so far. Maybe you don't realise it, but you come across as amazingly blasé towards this miscarriage of justice. There is no "maybe" about it. And it shouldn't have gone anywhere at all. The state has fucked this guy's life up for no reason other than its own incompetence. I get the feeling that those in law enforcement are so brainwashed as to the monstrous nature of their "enemy" that they rationalise away "collateral damage" like this guy as a necessary evil.
      - pyre 17y ago
        > I get the feeling that those in law enforcement are so brainwashed as to the monstrous nature of their "enemy" that they rationalise away "collateral damage" like this guy as a necessary evil. I'm sure that on some level they feel bad about it, but they find ways to rationalize it away so they they can continue their job, and the politicos in the department try to keep everyone hush-hush to avoid lawsuits and a PR storm if someone were to admit to a mistake.
      - ErrantX 17y ago
        > but you come across as amazingly blasé towards this miscarriage of justice Sorry, not my intention. I dont think this is considered a "necessary evil". I think fuck ups and mistakes happen; yes this should be investigated (I have no idea if it has been) and it should be considered how to stop mistakes happening. I think this guy has been screwed by society and his employer as much as the system of law. It's an extreme case and we need to find ways for it not to occur. However I am also of the opinion that we shouldn't second guess what happened on the basis of a news article. It's hardly a complete investigation. We have no idea what happened; if there is an investigation then I personally would be happier forming an opinion :) At the end of the day it comes down to a wire choice for the investigator. Does he pursue this aggressively and risk tarnishing an innocents reputation. Or does he back off from his cases and risk letting a pedophile go free. The LE officers I know tread this line with skill and dedication: I dispute the idea that this mistake, a situation where the line was crossed in the wrong way, is representative of the entire picture. :)

zmmmmm 17y ago

> It's hard to see what could have gone differently Really??? It would have been trivial for them to check and see that the child porn was purchased in Indonesia they should have been able to do a very quick check on his border records and see that he did not visit there. Instead they were just lazy and cast a wide net and pulled everything in. I hope he considers suing them.

ErrantX 17y ago
> It would have been trivial for them to check and see that the child porn was purchased in Indonesia Not particularly trival. And more importantly accessing another IUP is trivial; there is common software for the purchase of this material that uses various random proxies to protect your location/identity. The fact the IP address is in Indonesia tells us very little; tracing the actual IP to a physical location is relatively hard and time consuming. There isnt the money available to do that.