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True, but most environments will benefit from open and honest (and civil) discussion.

tptacek 11y ago
No, most businesses will not in fact benefit from a venting of the open and honest feelings of people who strongly believe in prejudices against races, genders, religions, ages, ethnicities, and the like.
- steverb 11y ago
  Neither do they seem to appreciate my honest opinion that coworker X is a complete and total moron who shouldn't be allowed to tie his shoe laces unsupervised, much less be writing code. I think that honestly is valued when we are talking about other people's ideas and efforts, but not so much when we just think the other person is an idiot/jerk/psychopath, etc.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    No, most employers would not appreciate an employer's earnest report that their coworker is "a complete and total moron who shouldn't be allowed to tie his shoe laces unsupervised". I think your problems may have less to do with principles and more to do with communications.
- goodcanadian 11y ago
  To be fair, I specified "civil." The thread started by referencing "micro aggressions," so I don't think strong beliefs in prejudices really apply here. I agree that most spaces (college or business) should be free of most types of aggression, but it seems to me that there is a subset of people who perceive aggression (or even go looking for it) when it is not in fact there. There is a cost to being too careful in what you say just as there is a cost in not being careful enough.
  - goodcanadian 11y ago
    You know, now that I've had a chance to think about it, the fact that you would interpret what I wrote as in any way condoning racist or sexist behaviour is exactly the sort of reaction I was talking about.
    - digler999 11y ago
      He's saying politics has no place at work. you're there to make money, producing a quality product or service. Not to meditate on your philosophy of 21st century feminism.
      - goodcanadian 11y ago
        And you seem to be inventing things that neither of us said.
        tptacek 11y ago
        Due respect, but he's a lot closer to what I was trying to communicate than you were.
        goodcanadian 11y ago
        In which case, you have also clearly missed what I was trying to communicate. Maybe, we both suck at English. I said nothing about politics or any other inappropriate workplace chatter. I was trying to say that an environment where you become paranoid about saying anything for risk of offending is not a healthy one. Does this particular company get to that point? Probably not, but too much focus on whether or not something is a "micro aggression" could bring it there rapidly. I actually agree with most of what you said; I just don't see how it is relevant in the context of the point I was trying to make.
        tptacek 11y ago
        Nobody is advocating for that kind of environment! The reason "micro-aggressions" need a name is because white dudes freak the fuck out when they got told that people are unhappy about their supposedly benign comments about people's appearance or background. The only thing any company I know of is asking is that people stop making these comments when made aware that they're bothering people.

No, most businesses will not in fact benefit from a venting of the open and honest feelings of people who strongly believe in prejudices against races, genders, religions, ages, ethnicities, and the like.

steverb 11y ago
Neither do they seem to appreciate my honest opinion that coworker X is a complete and total moron who shouldn't be allowed to tie his shoe laces unsupervised, much less be writing code. I think that honestly is valued when we are talking about other people's ideas and efforts, but not so much when we just think the other person is an idiot/jerk/psychopath, etc.
- tptacek 11y ago
  No, most employers would not appreciate an employer's earnest report that their coworker is "a complete and total moron who shouldn't be allowed to tie his shoe laces unsupervised". I think your problems may have less to do with principles and more to do with communications.
goodcanadian 11y ago
To be fair, I specified "civil." The thread started by referencing "micro aggressions," so I don't think strong beliefs in prejudices really apply here. I agree that most spaces (college or business) should be free of most types of aggression, but it seems to me that there is a subset of people who perceive aggression (or even go looking for it) when it is not in fact there. There is a cost to being too careful in what you say just as there is a cost in not being careful enough.
- goodcanadian 11y ago
  You know, now that I've had a chance to think about it, the fact that you would interpret what I wrote as in any way condoning racist or sexist behaviour is exactly the sort of reaction I was talking about.
  - digler999 11y ago
    He's saying politics has no place at work. you're there to make money, producing a quality product or service. Not to meditate on your philosophy of 21st century feminism.
    - goodcanadian 11y ago
      And you seem to be inventing things that neither of us said.
      - tptacek 11y ago
        Due respect, but he's a lot closer to what I was trying to communicate than you were.
        goodcanadian 11y ago
        In which case, you have also clearly missed what I was trying to communicate. Maybe, we both suck at English. I said nothing about politics or any other inappropriate workplace chatter. I was trying to say that an environment where you become paranoid about saying anything for risk of offending is not a healthy one. Does this particular company get to that point? Probably not, but too much focus on whether or not something is a "micro aggression" could bring it there rapidly. I actually agree with most of what you said; I just don't see how it is relevant in the context of the point I was trying to make.
        tptacek 11y ago
        Nobody is advocating for that kind of environment! The reason "micro-aggressions" need a name is because white dudes freak the fuck out when they got told that people are unhappy about their supposedly benign comments about people's appearance or background. The only thing any company I know of is asking is that people stop making these comments when made aware that they're bothering people.