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Not going to happen. That would shut down air travel. The TSA will not be allowed to shut down air travel. The TSA isn't even allowed to blanket ban people f

by patio11 11y ago

Not going to happen. That would shut down air travel. The TSA will not be allowed to shut down air travel. The TSA isn't even allowed to blanket ban people from traveling without ID documents in the status quo. (Surprised? https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification https://www.tsa.gov/travel/security-screening/identification)

mikeash 11y ago
Yep. Both sides are bluffing and it's just a question of who's going to blink first. And the IRS tie-in is just weird. OK, so they might refuse to issue you a passport if you have more than $50,000 in unpaid federal taxes. They put people in prison for that sort of thing, saying you're not allowed to fly is pretty minor by comparison. The whole article has a breathlessly conspiratorial tone.
- patio11 11y ago
  They put people in prison for that sort of thing If you report income honestly and simply don't pay taxes you get sent a bill a few times and then collection efforts escalate with e.g. offsets against your tax refunds, liens against your property, and garnishing your bank account and/or wages. You have to defraud them (very egregiously) to get prosecuted. Sorry to be picky about this, but we're on a forum chock-full of entrepreneurs and it's highly likely that there exist people here who will have a run-in with the IRS 1+ times in their life. It's not like getting prosecuted for embezzlement. It's like having an acrimonious dispute with your landlord. Money is the root of it, money will solve it, and money will pay boring straight-laced professionals who deal with this sort of stuff five days a week in a way that would make very, very poor television. If you owe the IRS $50k, that's very, very far from being the end of the world. It's not as socially acceptable as owing Bank of America $50k but it almost certainly carries a lower interest rate [+] and you'll find that the clockpunching bureaucrats over there will diligently pursue their process but won't break any land-speed records over it because neither they nor Uncle Sam really care about whether you pay that this year or in 2021. + If you had stiffed Uncle Sam on 50k for your 2010 taxes (due 4/15/2016) you'd presently be looking at paying ~$71k after interest and penalties, which works out to a hair over 7% APR.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - mikeash 11y ago
    But it's the same with the passports, right? They have a big hammer they can use, but what they really want is their money, so they'll do what they can to get it. They want to have the threat so they can get their money. The new law says this only applies to "seriously delinquent tax debt" which means you not only owe it, but aren't paying it, it's escalated to a lien or levy, and you have no pending hearings about it. Maybe this is less than what it takes to get prosecuted, but it's not like they're just saying, "you owe us a lot, no travel for you until you pay us." The State Department can already refuse to issue or renew passports for as little as $2,500 in unpaid child support, or if you defaulted on a loan from the State Department to help you return to the US. So this general theme is not unprecedented.
  - tptacek 11y ago
    Owing the IRS 50k is more socially acceptable than owing Bank of America 50k. If you get into intractable debt with Bank of America, they will destroy your credit. If the same happens with the IRS, they will put you on a payment plan.
    - dsacco 11y ago
      Not to nitpick with the spirit of your point, but I wouldn't say this satisfies the requirements for socially acceptable. What you're explaining just means owing money to the IRS is an easier situation to resolve than owing money to a bank. Before you and Patrick explain the nuances of these scenarios (such as in this thread), I'm willing to bet most people look at it more like this: John owes the bank $50,000 Hey, John is almost done paying off his mortgage. That's just swell. James owes the IRS $50,000 Did you hear about James? What is he involved in and why doesn't he pay his taxes? I think social acceptance is more or less positively correlated with what's common for the middle class. Taking out $50,000 in student loans for a degree with poor ROI is inarguably a bad financial decision, but it's fundamentally sound in terms of social signaling. Conversely, not paying taxes is something that would be unthinkable to the anxious fiscal sensibilities of the middle class (but notably, not necessarily the upper class if they can benefit from it, and not necessarily the lower class if they can't afford it).
- tptacek 11y ago
  I've owed more than $50k in taxes (at times where I had no immediate prospect of covering the deficiency) and, this may be news to you, but: it's just not a big deal to owe lots of money in taxes. Nobody cares. You'll get a tax lien, offered a payment plan, and, if you're obstinate, have your wages garnished. That's it. The IRS cannot in general prevent you from receiving government services. You can be accused of tax fraud, at which point your case will be heard in a criminal court. That's it, except for the passport thing.
pjc50 11y ago
How does this interact with no-fly lists?
Grue3 11y ago
Every other country requires passports for air travel. We're doing fine.
- beeboop 11y ago
  I am not sure how true this is, but even if it were, I would assume you're largely referring to European countries, where the nature of air travel is very different. In most of Europe you cannot get on a plane and fly in any direction for more than an hour or two and not wind up in a different country. Hence people who fly are overwhelmingly going to have a passport if it's needed (especially if you factor in that many European countries have excellent high speed rail for intra-country travel), and therefore this barrier is not much of an issue.
  - ovi256 11y ago
    Meanwhile, in this universe, travel inside the Schengen area (which covers an impressive chunk of Europe) does not require a passport, but any kind of national ID, regardless how many borders it crosses. Coincidentally, it's the same as for internal air travel.
    - beeboop 11y ago
      I guessed as much, thanks.
- ibmthrowaway218 11y ago
  Domestic flights within the UK don't require passports (although the airlines may require some form of ID to be presented in order to get boarding passes).
- rmc 11y ago
  No, many European countries have national ID cards and you can fly between some EU countries using only that, not your passport.

by patio11 11y ago

mikeash 11y ago

Yep. Both sides are bluffing and it's just a question of who's going to blink first. And the IRS tie-in is just weird. OK, so they might refuse to issue you a passport if you have more than $50,000 in unpaid federal taxes. They put people in prison for that sort of thing, saying you're not allowed to fly is pretty minor by comparison. The whole article has a breathlessly conspiratorial tone.

patio11 11y ago
They put people in prison for that sort of thing If you report income honestly and simply don't pay taxes you get sent a bill a few times and then collection efforts escalate with e.g. offsets against your tax refunds, liens against your property, and garnishing your bank account and/or wages. You have to defraud them (very egregiously) to get prosecuted. Sorry to be picky about this, but we're on a forum chock-full of entrepreneurs and it's highly likely that there exist people here who will have a run-in with the IRS 1+ times in their life. It's not like getting prosecuted for embezzlement. It's like having an acrimonious dispute with your landlord. Money is the root of it, money will solve it, and money will pay boring straight-laced professionals who deal with this sort of stuff five days a week in a way that would make very, very poor television. If you owe the IRS $50k, that's very, very far from being the end of the world. It's not as socially acceptable as owing Bank of America $50k but it almost certainly carries a lower interest rate [+] and you'll find that the clockpunching bureaucrats over there will diligently pursue their process but won't break any land-speed records over it because neither they nor Uncle Sam really care about whether you pay that this year or in 2021. + If you had stiffed Uncle Sam on 50k for your 2010 taxes (due 4/15/2016) you'd presently be looking at paying ~$71k after interest and penalties, which works out to a hair over 7% APR.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- mikeash 11y ago
  But it's the same with the passports, right? They have a big hammer they can use, but what they really want is their money, so they'll do what they can to get it. They want to have the threat so they can get their money. The new law says this only applies to "seriously delinquent tax debt" which means you not only owe it, but aren't paying it, it's escalated to a lien or levy, and you have no pending hearings about it. Maybe this is less than what it takes to get prosecuted, but it's not like they're just saying, "you owe us a lot, no travel for you until you pay us." The State Department can already refuse to issue or renew passports for as little as $2,500 in unpaid child support, or if you defaulted on a loan from the State Department to help you return to the US. So this general theme is not unprecedented.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Owing the IRS 50k is more socially acceptable than owing Bank of America 50k. If you get into intractable debt with Bank of America, they will destroy your credit. If the same happens with the IRS, they will put you on a payment plan.
  - dsacco 11y ago
    Not to nitpick with the spirit of your point, but I wouldn't say this satisfies the requirements for socially acceptable. What you're explaining just means owing money to the IRS is an easier situation to resolve than owing money to a bank. Before you and Patrick explain the nuances of these scenarios (such as in this thread), I'm willing to bet most people look at it more like this: John owes the bank $50,000 Hey, John is almost done paying off his mortgage. That's just swell. James owes the IRS $50,000 Did you hear about James? What is he involved in and why doesn't he pay his taxes? I think social acceptance is more or less positively correlated with what's common for the middle class. Taking out $50,000 in student loans for a degree with poor ROI is inarguably a bad financial decision, but it's fundamentally sound in terms of social signaling. Conversely, not paying taxes is something that would be unthinkable to the anxious fiscal sensibilities of the middle class (but notably, not necessarily the upper class if they can benefit from it, and not necessarily the lower class if they can't afford it).
tptacek 11y ago
I've owed more than $50k in taxes (at times where I had no immediate prospect of covering the deficiency) and, this may be news to you, but: it's just not a big deal to owe lots of money in taxes. Nobody cares. You'll get a tax lien, offered a payment plan, and, if you're obstinate, have your wages garnished. That's it. The IRS cannot in general prevent you from receiving government services. You can be accused of tax fraud, at which point your case will be heard in a criminal court. That's it, except for the passport thing.

pjc50 11y ago

How does this interact with no-fly lists?

Grue3 11y ago

Every other country requires passports for air travel. We're doing fine.

beeboop 11y ago
I am not sure how true this is, but even if it were, I would assume you're largely referring to European countries, where the nature of air travel is very different. In most of Europe you cannot get on a plane and fly in any direction for more than an hour or two and not wind up in a different country. Hence people who fly are overwhelmingly going to have a passport if it's needed (especially if you factor in that many European countries have excellent high speed rail for intra-country travel), and therefore this barrier is not much of an issue.
- ovi256 11y ago
  Meanwhile, in this universe, travel inside the Schengen area (which covers an impressive chunk of Europe) does not require a passport, but any kind of national ID, regardless how many borders it crosses. Coincidentally, it's the same as for internal air travel.
  - beeboop 11y ago
    I guessed as much, thanks.
ibmthrowaway218 11y ago
Domestic flights within the UK don't require passports (although the airlines may require some form of ID to be presented in order to get boarding passes).
rmc 11y ago
No, many European countries have national ID cards and you can fly between some EU countries using only that, not your passport.