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It is great news to see some companies taking small steps towards what is considered normal in the rest of developed world, but it's actually very sad that in A

It is great news to see some companies taking small steps towards what is considered normal in the rest of developed world, but it's actually very sad that in America it's the corporations who are taking the role of defending citizens rights, but only selectively. Etsy defends the right to maternal leave, Apple defends the right to privacy and so on, but at the same time, it is the relation between corporate power and political power that has made the US move forward so little in social rights. Free health, education, maternal leave, striking... This should be rights, not company privileges. Congrats to Etsy employees, and condolences to everyone else.

amag 11y ago
> Etsy defends the right to maternal leave Actually it's gender neutral. So I hope a lot of dads at Etsy also take the opportunity (as it's fully paid you'd be nuts not to take it).
- alexandrerond 11y ago
  Sorry, this was a typo (unconscious bias? who knows). I meant parental leave of course. I should add that parental leave can only work when it is mandatory, for both parents. American companies do this a lot: you have the option to take unlimited vacation, the option to take parental leave... but peer pressure, social pressure push people not to take them (at least to the full extent they are entitled), as it is seen as letting the team down, or letting the company down, or not being compromised enough etc. In the case of parental leave, society pushes mothers to take it, rather than fathers. Therefore, mandatory equal leave for both parents is the only way to make a difference... Unfortunately not even Europe is there yet (or most countries in it).
  - amag 11y ago
    While I do agree that there could be a lot of peer pressure etc to not take parental leave, there are some interesting things with their policy which makes me think it's great: 1. That it's fully paid alleviates the money discussion (between parents). 2. That it's a company policy means Etsy's management has fully embraced it (I assume). When government mandated, a manager can always mutter and mumble about it enough to give the parent feelings of guilt or at least uneasiness. 3. That it's not unlimited would at least make me more comfortable to take the whole 26 weeks. They had five weeks before, they could have chosen 10 or 18 weeks, nobody was really wringing their arm to decide on 26 weeks.
forgetsusername 11y ago
>it's actually very sad that in America it's the corporations who are taking the role of defending citizens rights Why is that sad? It's precisely how it should work. Corporations have the power, money, organization and man-power to push a progressive agenda. It's just a collection of people afterall, not some nebulous, evil entity.
- joepvd 11y ago
  In the countries I have been living, paternal leave is a right that comes with having a job and getting a kid. It is not a perk that some noble businesses might choose to provide.
- tmcz26 11y ago
  If you ignore the profit motive then maybe, but Corporations in the end are there to serve their shareholders. If the people at the top care, then the company might have a progressive agenda, but that is usually not the case. Take my country, Brazil, for instance. Regardless of the current corruption scandal going on, it has a very protective labor laws because it presumes the Corporation will screw their employees if they can, which historically is what happened. Since the 50s local companies are required to pay a 13th wage, to help with annual expenses (yearly taxes, insurances and of course the holiday gifts); give paid 30-day vacation; 4 months of maternity leave (2 weeks for dads); commute reimbursement, if you take public transport; and meal/lunch allowances, since the employee has to eat during their 8 hour day. That's all mandatory. Medical insurance is expected in most jobs, though it is not mandated. This is a major safety network for the (employed) poor. Now, I've been both employee and employer and I think, overall, this is a good thing. Yes, the Corporation's expenses with staff are very high, but everyone has to do it, so it's not like it impedes local competition. If it was optional then startups and enlightened companies would probably provide this, but most "regular" companies wouldn't.
fsloth 11y ago
I think this is typical of US. I've tried to understand this stark difference to e.g. most of europe as a non-US citizen and this is the best explanation I've come with. Please, correct me if I'm wrong or misguided - I'm trying to figure this out myself. In the US tradition, the government takes a hands off approach and lets private entities figure it out in the courthouses what is actually an accepted convention and what is not. Unfortunately this means there is one less player with a huge leverage defending the good life of an individual. When the US was created 'strong government' was considered adverserial for the checks and balances they tried to put in place - and it also probably reeked of monarchy and tyranny. I think the reason lot of US conventions seem strange is that they are constructed from this aversion to big government. With the rise of the military-industrial complex and the state intelligence and security forces US has, it appears at least to me that the influence of the government in the US system is larger than originally intended, and not necessarily in ways that benefits the private citizen. That's why it now appears odd that while US is this economic and military juggernaut the lives of it's private citizens are surprisingly fragile and ill defended.

amag 11y ago

> Etsy defends the right to maternal leave Actually it's gender neutral. So I hope a lot of dads at Etsy also take the opportunity (as it's fully paid you'd be nuts not to take it).

alexandrerond 11y ago
Sorry, this was a typo (unconscious bias? who knows). I meant parental leave of course. I should add that parental leave can only work when it is mandatory, for both parents. American companies do this a lot: you have the option to take unlimited vacation, the option to take parental leave... but peer pressure, social pressure push people not to take them (at least to the full extent they are entitled), as it is seen as letting the team down, or letting the company down, or not being compromised enough etc. In the case of parental leave, society pushes mothers to take it, rather than fathers. Therefore, mandatory equal leave for both parents is the only way to make a difference... Unfortunately not even Europe is there yet (or most countries in it).
- amag 11y ago
  While I do agree that there could be a lot of peer pressure etc to not take parental leave, there are some interesting things with their policy which makes me think it's great: 1. That it's fully paid alleviates the money discussion (between parents). 2. That it's a company policy means Etsy's management has fully embraced it (I assume). When government mandated, a manager can always mutter and mumble about it enough to give the parent feelings of guilt or at least uneasiness. 3. That it's not unlimited would at least make me more comfortable to take the whole 26 weeks. They had five weeks before, they could have chosen 10 or 18 weeks, nobody was really wringing their arm to decide on 26 weeks.

forgetsusername 11y ago

>it's actually very sad that in America it's the corporations who are taking the role of defending citizens rights Why is that sad? It's precisely how it should work. Corporations have the power, money, organization and man-power to push a progressive agenda. It's just a collection of people afterall, not some nebulous, evil entity.

joepvd 11y ago
In the countries I have been living, paternal leave is a right that comes with having a job and getting a kid. It is not a perk that some noble businesses might choose to provide.
tmcz26 11y ago
If you ignore the profit motive then maybe, but Corporations in the end are there to serve their shareholders. If the people at the top care, then the company might have a progressive agenda, but that is usually not the case. Take my country, Brazil, for instance. Regardless of the current corruption scandal going on, it has a very protective labor laws because it presumes the Corporation will screw their employees if they can, which historically is what happened. Since the 50s local companies are required to pay a 13th wage, to help with annual expenses (yearly taxes, insurances and of course the holiday gifts); give paid 30-day vacation; 4 months of maternity leave (2 weeks for dads); commute reimbursement, if you take public transport; and meal/lunch allowances, since the employee has to eat during their 8 hour day. That's all mandatory. Medical insurance is expected in most jobs, though it is not mandated. This is a major safety network for the (employed) poor. Now, I've been both employee and employer and I think, overall, this is a good thing. Yes, the Corporation's expenses with staff are very high, but everyone has to do it, so it's not like it impedes local competition. If it was optional then startups and enlightened companies would probably provide this, but most "regular" companies wouldn't.

fsloth 11y ago

I think this is typical of US. I've tried to understand this stark difference to e.g. most of europe as a non-US citizen and this is the best explanation I've come with. Please, correct me if I'm wrong or misguided - I'm trying to figure this out myself. In the US tradition, the government takes a hands off approach and lets private entities figure it out in the courthouses what is actually an accepted convention and what is not. Unfortunately this means there is one less player with a huge leverage defending the good life of an individual. When the US was created 'strong government' was considered adverserial for the checks and balances they tried to put in place - and it also probably reeked of monarchy and tyranny. I think the reason lot of US conventions seem strange is that they are constructed from this aversion to big government. With the rise of the military-industrial complex and the state intelligence and security forces US has, it appears at least to me that the influence of the government in the US system is larger than originally intended, and not necessarily in ways that benefits the private citizen. That's why it now appears odd that while US is this economic and military juggernaut the lives of it's private citizens are surprisingly fragile and ill defended.