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North Korea sentences US tourist to 15 years in prison

77 points by setra 11y ago

alexandrerond 11y ago
Someone claiming to travel in his same group posted on this recent submission https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11286997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11286997 . Apparently they were given quite a leeway for what regular travel reports tell. I don't know if the charges are true, but given the history, North Korea doesn't seem like the best place to go to have fun, go to bars, or steal banners, specially with an American passport. I hope diplomacy can move fast enough and get the release of this poor guy.
- vacri 11y ago
  > I hope diplomacy can move fast enough and get the release of this poor guy. Hundreds of people get into similar trouble every year. The only reason why this is notable is that it's a prank in North Korea. If he really did try to steal the poster, then he's a moron who walked into the lion's den and tweaked it's nose - it's not like NK's dictatorial control and harsh penalties are subtle and poorly-known. If the story is true, he should be near the bottom of the help-needed list, because there's plenty more who need diplomatic assistance for misadventure beyond their control. I really don't understand this trend of people going to NK and seeing how far they can push the line. It doesn't make sense - push too far, and you're fucked. And again, it's not like it's easy to innocently go too far - it's difficult to get into the country, it's in the public mind as a crazy place you don't want to step wrong, and you're constantly reminded when you are there. You actually have to want to go there and be an arse if you do go there and be an arse.
  - crispyambulance 11y ago
    North Korea sees stuff like this as an opportunity to exploit. It means some big shot will have to visit to exchange the detainee for "something." It was perhaps a stupid idea, but he doesn't actually deserve 15 years hard labor for the antics of a 20-something prankster.
    - idp 11y ago
      NK can be considered a natural disaster or something else that you cannot bargain with (unless you're with the Chinese government). Holding NK at fault here is about as practical as holding at fault gravity if the guy tried to vandalize an ad billboard, fell down, broke his spine and spent the next 15 years paralyzed. So if this guy really did what the news claims he did, he has a rather big problem with his mental abilities. Saying "he doesn't actually deserve 15 years in prison" is akin to saying "he doesn't actually deserve 15 years in a hospital ward". Perhaps he doesn't, but the world works on causal chains rather than fairness.
      - dfischer 11y ago
        That's pretty harsh man. He's a kid and doesn't deserve 15 years for tearing down a poster. Look at the humanity in it regardless of how factual NK behaves. The kid simply doesn't deserve it and it's the _right thing to do_ to help him.
        ams6110 11y ago
        Sure, by our standards. He's not in a place that operates by our standards. And he knew that going in. Some people seem to have this illusion that the rest of the world is what they want it to be, rather than what it is.
        knorker 11y ago
        You're replying to the comment that quite accurately makes the case "deserve's got NOTHING to do with it", and your only argument is that he doesn't deserve it. O…k?
        MaulingMonkey 11y ago
        > The kid simply doesn't deserve it Nobody is saying he does. > and it's the _right thing to do_ to help him. Sure, but that's not the question. The question is: Is it the right thing to do to help him, at the expense of helping someone else? They don't deserve it either. But life is unfair, and we can only do so much at once - this is basic opportunity cost. It's simply impossible for us to do everything at once - we're merely human. Even when your goal is to eventually save everyone, you have to prioritize. Even when the stakes are as high as helping people survive North Korea. Perhaps especially then - when it matters most to do as much good as possible.
  - alexandrerond 11y ago
    I tend to agree with you, but I just cannot forget that even if they guy did something stupid, what is really wrong is the NK regime that sends him to 15 years of force labour for a minor offense. So I do hope they get him out asap, with the other hundreds of people of course.
- darklajid 11y ago
  Link to the subthread in question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11287471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11287471
viraptor 11y ago
Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295023
wodenokoto 11y ago
He said he was offered a used car worth $10,000 if he could get a banner and was also told that if he was detained and didn't return, $200,000 would be paid to his mother in the form of a charitable donation. The article goes on to say that confessions are usually retracted once the accused is let free. This seems really weird to me. I get that a college student would see it fun to steal a propaganda banner from North Korea and not realise how severe such punishment could possibly be. I don't see how anyone would want to pay $10.000 for a banner, let alone risk $200.000 for its attempted acquisition. But assuming this is a story the accused gave under duress from the North Korean regime, seems even more crazy. I really don't know what to believe.
- madaxe_again 11y ago
  That monetary bit raised an eyebrow here too - either that's a forced and false confession or weird behaviour by a church. The CIA isn't entirely unknown to operate through front organisations (they almost always do). That said, more likely is the bit about the Z society, who have a track record of getting their supplicants variously arrested and killed over the last century and a bit, who were probably the ones actually pushing the idea.
  - wodenokoto 11y ago
    I don't get why NK would think that story is particularly good. It just seems odd from every angle, except the Z-society, if we are willing to believe they are grade A assholes who would put up a fake monetary reward to convince someone to get in a lot of trouble.
    - madaxe_again 11y ago
      Oh, the monetary award is likely real - the collective worth of their members is in the billions.
    - krzrak 11y ago
      > I don't get why NK would think that story is particularly good. From the history of their actions, they don't seem to have very brilliant people in charge ;)
tcfunk 11y ago
I half expected this to be about the guy from yesterday who rigged his camera to take illicit photos.
jbmorgado 11y ago
I personally know 5 guys (I'm friend with 2 of them) that were arrested for almost 1 month waiting trial in a EU country for trying to steal a national symbol (it was a banner with the flag of that particular country). They were EU citizens, they were in another EU country and still, they were arrested 1 month, had to pay a fine of around 5000 euros each and to forfeit their right to enter that country, even being a Schengen country, for some years. I know that this case in N. Korea is much worst, but you must understand that some countries (even free and democratic countries) can take this kind of things very seriously. I hope the guy get's to return home, but he really showed very poor judgment.
- adwn 11y ago
  Which country was that?
  - jcrei 11y ago
    If memory serves me right, and it's the same case I remember (same friends). Then it was Latvia. 2007
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
JoeAltmaier 11y ago
Alternate title: "N Korea continues to act like your crazy uncle, hoping thereby to coerce others into concessions (like bringing him some potatoe chips)." They do everything to offend and enrage without actually crossing the line where military action is called for. Its their only way of negotiating with countries they have no relations with. Which is nearly everybody?
- logicrook 11y ago
  Wow, thank you for your analysis! To think that political reporting as sunken so low, while there is so much untapped potential lying around, waiting to give us such brilliants commentary on geopolitics... !
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    I'm not the first to observe this about N Korea, by far. Only one of us was being sarcastic.
zanethomas 11y ago
he is beyond stupid it's going to cost time and money to get him out of there
andrewshatnyy 11y ago
Can someone explain me why civil Americans go to such places? Recipe is simple as pie: if you have to travel to countries rulled by nutjobs DON'T! You can't expect human rights from your own country be respected everywhere.
- beeboop 11y ago
  A poorly calibrated sense of self preservation. Plus it's a pretty foreign concept, it's hard for someone to evaluate the danger of such an abstract premise that is unlike anything else they deal with in life.
  - andrewshatnyy 11y ago
    Indeed. In that case it sounds like natural selection to me.
- ionised 11y ago
  Same reason people might want to visit Chernobyl or Auschwitz (I've done both and NK was on my to-do list until recently). Morbid curioisity about some of the stranger and darker places in the world. Some people want to experience negative things as well as positive, as it seems necessary to get a full picture of our place on this planet.
woodandsteel 11y ago
Do we even know he actually stole the banner? Maybe NK drummed up the charges to get something as a barginning chip. It is in a pretty bad place lately, even China, its only allie, has been pressuring it to change, so it needs whatever it can get. I think automatically accepting the truthfulness of anything the NK regime claims is quite naive.

77 points by setra 11y ago

Someone claiming to travel in his same group posted on this recent submission https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11286997 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11286997 . Apparently they were given quite a leeway for what regular travel reports tell. I don't know if the charges are true, but given the history, North Korea doesn't seem like the best place to go to have fun, go to bars, or steal banners, specially with an American passport. I hope diplomacy can move fast enough and get the release of this poor guy.

vacri 11y ago
> I hope diplomacy can move fast enough and get the release of this poor guy. Hundreds of people get into similar trouble every year. The only reason why this is notable is that it's a prank in North Korea. If he really did try to steal the poster, then he's a moron who walked into the lion's den and tweaked it's nose - it's not like NK's dictatorial control and harsh penalties are subtle and poorly-known. If the story is true, he should be near the bottom of the help-needed list, because there's plenty more who need diplomatic assistance for misadventure beyond their control. I really don't understand this trend of people going to NK and seeing how far they can push the line. It doesn't make sense - push too far, and you're fucked. And again, it's not like it's easy to innocently go too far - it's difficult to get into the country, it's in the public mind as a crazy place you don't want to step wrong, and you're constantly reminded when you are there. You actually have to want to go there and be an arse if you do go there and be an arse.
- crispyambulance 11y ago
  North Korea sees stuff like this as an opportunity to exploit. It means some big shot will have to visit to exchange the detainee for "something." It was perhaps a stupid idea, but he doesn't actually deserve 15 years hard labor for the antics of a 20-something prankster.
  - idp 11y ago
    NK can be considered a natural disaster or something else that you cannot bargain with (unless you're with the Chinese government). Holding NK at fault here is about as practical as holding at fault gravity if the guy tried to vandalize an ad billboard, fell down, broke his spine and spent the next 15 years paralyzed. So if this guy really did what the news claims he did, he has a rather big problem with his mental abilities. Saying "he doesn't actually deserve 15 years in prison" is akin to saying "he doesn't actually deserve 15 years in a hospital ward". Perhaps he doesn't, but the world works on causal chains rather than fairness.
    - dfischer 11y ago
      That's pretty harsh man. He's a kid and doesn't deserve 15 years for tearing down a poster. Look at the humanity in it regardless of how factual NK behaves. The kid simply doesn't deserve it and it's the _right thing to do_ to help him.
      - ams6110 11y ago
        Sure, by our standards. He's not in a place that operates by our standards. And he knew that going in. Some people seem to have this illusion that the rest of the world is what they want it to be, rather than what it is.
      - knorker 11y ago
        You're replying to the comment that quite accurately makes the case "deserve's got NOTHING to do with it", and your only argument is that he doesn't deserve it. O…k?
      - MaulingMonkey 11y ago
        > The kid simply doesn't deserve it Nobody is saying he does. > and it's the _right thing to do_ to help him. Sure, but that's not the question. The question is: Is it the right thing to do to help him, at the expense of helping someone else? They don't deserve it either. But life is unfair, and we can only do so much at once - this is basic opportunity cost. It's simply impossible for us to do everything at once - we're merely human. Even when your goal is to eventually save everyone, you have to prioritize. Even when the stakes are as high as helping people survive North Korea. Perhaps especially then - when it matters most to do as much good as possible.
- alexandrerond 11y ago
  I tend to agree with you, but I just cannot forget that even if they guy did something stupid, what is really wrong is the NK regime that sends him to 15 years of force labour for a minor offense. So I do hope they get him out asap, with the other hundreds of people of course.
darklajid 11y ago
Link to the subthread in question: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11287471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11287471

viraptor 11y ago

Previously: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295023 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295023

wodenokoto 11y ago

He said he was offered a used car worth $10,000 if he could get a banner and was also told that if he was detained and didn't return, $200,000 would be paid to his mother in the form of a charitable donation. The article goes on to say that confessions are usually retracted once the accused is let free. This seems really weird to me. I get that a college student would see it fun to steal a propaganda banner from North Korea and not realise how severe such punishment could possibly be. I don't see how anyone would want to pay $10.000 for a banner, let alone risk $200.000 for its attempted acquisition. But assuming this is a story the accused gave under duress from the North Korean regime, seems even more crazy. I really don't know what to believe.

madaxe_again 11y ago
That monetary bit raised an eyebrow here too - either that's a forced and false confession or weird behaviour by a church. The CIA isn't entirely unknown to operate through front organisations (they almost always do). That said, more likely is the bit about the Z society, who have a track record of getting their supplicants variously arrested and killed over the last century and a bit, who were probably the ones actually pushing the idea.
- wodenokoto 11y ago
  I don't get why NK would think that story is particularly good. It just seems odd from every angle, except the Z-society, if we are willing to believe they are grade A assholes who would put up a fake monetary reward to convince someone to get in a lot of trouble.
  - madaxe_again 11y ago
    Oh, the monetary award is likely real - the collective worth of their members is in the billions.
  - krzrak 11y ago
    > I don't get why NK would think that story is particularly good. From the history of their actions, they don't seem to have very brilliant people in charge ;)

tcfunk 11y ago

I half expected this to be about the guy from yesterday who rigged his camera to take illicit photos.

jbmorgado 11y ago

I personally know 5 guys (I'm friend with 2 of them) that were arrested for almost 1 month waiting trial in a EU country for trying to steal a national symbol (it was a banner with the flag of that particular country). They were EU citizens, they were in another EU country and still, they were arrested 1 month, had to pay a fine of around 5000 euros each and to forfeit their right to enter that country, even being a Schengen country, for some years. I know that this case in N. Korea is much worst, but you must understand that some countries (even free and democratic countries) can take this kind of things very seriously. I hope the guy get's to return home, but he really showed very poor judgment.

adwn 11y ago
Which country was that?
- jcrei 11y ago
  If memory serves me right, and it's the same case I remember (same friends). Then it was Latvia. 2007

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

JoeAltmaier 11y ago

Alternate title: "N Korea continues to act like your crazy uncle, hoping thereby to coerce others into concessions (like bringing him some potatoe chips)." They do everything to offend and enrage without actually crossing the line where military action is called for. Its their only way of negotiating with countries they have no relations with. Which is nearly everybody?

logicrook 11y ago
Wow, thank you for your analysis! To think that political reporting as sunken so low, while there is so much untapped potential lying around, waiting to give us such brilliants commentary on geopolitics... !
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  I'm not the first to observe this about N Korea, by far. Only one of us was being sarcastic.

zanethomas 11y ago

he is beyond stupid it's going to cost time and money to get him out of there

andrewshatnyy 11y ago

Can someone explain me why civil Americans go to such places? Recipe is simple as pie: if you have to travel to countries rulled by nutjobs DON'T! You can't expect human rights from your own country be respected everywhere.

beeboop 11y ago
A poorly calibrated sense of self preservation. Plus it's a pretty foreign concept, it's hard for someone to evaluate the danger of such an abstract premise that is unlike anything else they deal with in life.
- andrewshatnyy 11y ago
  Indeed. In that case it sounds like natural selection to me.
ionised 11y ago
Same reason people might want to visit Chernobyl or Auschwitz (I've done both and NK was on my to-do list until recently). Morbid curioisity about some of the stranger and darker places in the world. Some people want to experience negative things as well as positive, as it seems necessary to get a full picture of our place on this planet.

woodandsteel 11y ago

Do we even know he actually stole the banner? Maybe NK drummed up the charges to get something as a barginning chip. It is in a pretty bad place lately, even China, its only allie, has been pressuring it to change, so it needs whatever it can get. I think automatically accepting the truthfulness of anything the NK regime claims is quite naive.