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Web design today: NPM or Bower installation for a 37 line CSS file. When will this insanity end? The framework itself looks handy and simple enough, but there'

Web design today: NPM or Bower installation for a 37 line CSS file. When will this insanity end? The framework itself looks handy and simple enough, but there's probably already about 10 other flexbox layout frameworks out there that works just as good too. Here's another one: http://gridlex.devlint.fr/ http://gridlex.devlint.fr/

sotojuan 11y ago
What's wrong with that? It's a dependency. What else do you want to do, just load it in a `link` tag? Then here you go: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/1000ch/grd/gh-pages/dist/grd.css https://raw.githubusercontent.com/1000ch/grd/gh-pages/dist/g... I'm honestly not seeing what is there to complain about.
- dkopi 11y ago
  That actually isn't a good idea. https://rawgit.com/faq https://rawgit.com/faq
  - codecurve 11y ago
    So use Bower/NPM then. Or use npmcdn.com. https://npmcdn.com/grd@1.2.0/dist/grd.css https://npmcdn.com/grd@1.2.0/dist/grd.css
  - sotojuan 11y ago
    I meant that you can download it from there and use it locally.
- Mikushi 11y ago
  That I shouldn't need to install NPM or Bower to download a fucking half a Kb of CSS is what is the complain. It's a clear sign of people with no clue about proper software engineering, which is glaring in today's front end world where dependencies and tools have gone amok to manage mere hundreds lines of CSS or Javascript. Just provide a download link to the min file and be done with it.
  - nailer 11y ago
    I have a lot of dependencies. Sometimes they have dependencies. Being able to update them all at once is great. Same reason I like apt, yum and the various app stores.
  - fungi 11y ago
    you don't _need_ to, its simply best practice. have you ever taken on a code base with thousands of lines of copy pasta code? tried to update or workout dependencies/conflicts when the dude before you just dumped a bunch of jquery plugins (some hacked) in a directory? give me a package.json any day! mmmm.. structured data.. nom nom nom
    - Mikushi 11y ago
      >its simply best practice. Some of the times. What I am bitching about is that I can't get around NPM/Bower and other bullshit, I have to use it for a lot of these libs, regardless of me needing them. I am the only one who should judge what are the best practices for the project I am working on, not some clueless Javascript hacker (cheap shot I know). What I'm complaining about is that front end "developers" seem to all be unaware of a few staple principle of software engineering: keep it simple and right tool for right job. I've used NPM, Bower, Gulp, and others, when it was needed but from over a decade of experience in the web I can assure you that 90% of the time, it's superfluous. It generates developers who don't know how their own code works or interact, and who for the major part end up over engineering everything they touch for no goddamn reason. Plus I always end up spending more time dealing with those stupid tools than coding, and if Java taught me anything it's that this is the clear sign of a very ill and insane dev culture.
      - aurbano 11y ago
        > What I am bitching about is that I can't get around NPM/Bower and other bullshit, I have to use it for a lot of these libs, regardless of me needing them. You do realize that downloading the CSS/JS for these libs is trivial, nothing is forcing you to use Bower/NPM/<insert lib management tool here>.
      - 11y ago
- clevernickname 11y ago
  It's 37 lines of wrapper CSS. You don't need a library with a cute name and a package manager and an HN thread and a fucking logo to do something that you can replicate in a minute. Imagine someone posting a repo of their alternatively-named C integer typedefs on here. nt An integer framework using stdint.h Simple It's just a header file Light-weight It's like 10 lines Flexible You can do anything ... #include <stdint.h> typedef int32_t nt32; ...
  - majewsky 11y ago
    You can do ANYTHING at zombo.com!
  - Biganon 11y ago
    How is that a problem again? You find it overkill and ridiculous, OK, but how is that a problem? Just download the file the way you want and you can forget about all the trauma you encountered when you had to see a logo
    - clevernickname 11y ago
      It's not a "problem." It's just silly and indicative of the immaturity of web developers. There was once a time when you could mock ridiculous things without being "traumatized" by them.
bschwindHN 11y ago
Yes, how "insane" I actually think it was nice of the developer to say "Hey, you can install this with npm or bower". And if you don't like either, you can grab the source yourself. Or you can just not use it and move on. I wouldn't use this myself just because I think using flexbox on its own is great. And there are plenty of problems in web development today. But calling it "insane" just feels like you were looking for something trivial to get upset about.
- tambourine_man 11y ago
  Excess of tools is not trivial, it's the main problem with web development today, IMO.
  - bschwindHN 11y ago
    They are two widely used tools in the web dev industry. The developer of this CSS framework is simply supporting users of those tools, they're not deserving of this criticism. But I do agree that web dev tooling could use a lot of work. Grd did not set out to solve that.
    - tambourine_man 11y ago
      I agree it's not "insane" to include NPM, but I do feel a trend of over complicating things that should be simple. A 4 page static website, for example, shouldn't need model view controller, package manager, routing, etc.
      - joshmanders 11y ago
        How is a simple package.json file included in the repo "over complicating things"?
        tambourine_man 11y ago
        The question is at which point you feel the need for a package manager. I tend to err on the side working as simple as possible. Adding tools only when things seem like they can get out of hand, not before.
thomasz 11y ago
There you go: https://1000ch.github.io/grd/dist/grd.css https://1000ch.github.io/grd/dist/grd.css
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
lolidaisuki 11y ago
Not only does the installation with npm take at least 20 minutes but you install anywhere between 250 and 400 dependencies for those 37 lines of CSS.

sotojuan 11y ago

What's wrong with that? It's a dependency. What else do you want to do, just load it in a `link` tag? Then here you go: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/1000ch/grd/gh-pages/dist/grd.css https://raw.githubusercontent.com/1000ch/grd/gh-pages/dist/g... I'm honestly not seeing what is there to complain about.

dkopi 11y ago
That actually isn't a good idea. https://rawgit.com/faq https://rawgit.com/faq
- codecurve 11y ago
  So use Bower/NPM then. Or use npmcdn.com. https://npmcdn.com/grd@1.2.0/dist/grd.css https://npmcdn.com/grd@1.2.0/dist/grd.css
- sotojuan 11y ago
  I meant that you can download it from there and use it locally.
Mikushi 11y ago
That I shouldn't need to install NPM or Bower to download a fucking half a Kb of CSS is what is the complain. It's a clear sign of people with no clue about proper software engineering, which is glaring in today's front end world where dependencies and tools have gone amok to manage mere hundreds lines of CSS or Javascript. Just provide a download link to the min file and be done with it.
- nailer 11y ago
  I have a lot of dependencies. Sometimes they have dependencies. Being able to update them all at once is great. Same reason I like apt, yum and the various app stores.
- fungi 11y ago
  you don't _need_ to, its simply best practice. have you ever taken on a code base with thousands of lines of copy pasta code? tried to update or workout dependencies/conflicts when the dude before you just dumped a bunch of jquery plugins (some hacked) in a directory? give me a package.json any day! mmmm.. structured data.. nom nom nom
  - Mikushi 11y ago
    >its simply best practice. Some of the times. What I am bitching about is that I can't get around NPM/Bower and other bullshit, I have to use it for a lot of these libs, regardless of me needing them. I am the only one who should judge what are the best practices for the project I am working on, not some clueless Javascript hacker (cheap shot I know). What I'm complaining about is that front end "developers" seem to all be unaware of a few staple principle of software engineering: keep it simple and right tool for right job. I've used NPM, Bower, Gulp, and others, when it was needed but from over a decade of experience in the web I can assure you that 90% of the time, it's superfluous. It generates developers who don't know how their own code works or interact, and who for the major part end up over engineering everything they touch for no goddamn reason. Plus I always end up spending more time dealing with those stupid tools than coding, and if Java taught me anything it's that this is the clear sign of a very ill and insane dev culture.
    - aurbano 11y ago
      > What I am bitching about is that I can't get around NPM/Bower and other bullshit, I have to use it for a lot of these libs, regardless of me needing them. You do realize that downloading the CSS/JS for these libs is trivial, nothing is forcing you to use Bower/NPM/<insert lib management tool here>.
    - 11y ago
clevernickname 11y ago
It's 37 lines of wrapper CSS. You don't need a library with a cute name and a package manager and an HN thread and a fucking logo to do something that you can replicate in a minute. Imagine someone posting a repo of their alternatively-named C integer typedefs on here. nt An integer framework using stdint.h Simple It's just a header file Light-weight It's like 10 lines Flexible You can do anything ... #include <stdint.h> typedef int32_t nt32; ...
- majewsky 11y ago
  You can do ANYTHING at zombo.com!
- Biganon 11y ago
  How is that a problem again? You find it overkill and ridiculous, OK, but how is that a problem? Just download the file the way you want and you can forget about all the trauma you encountered when you had to see a logo
  - clevernickname 11y ago
    It's not a "problem." It's just silly and indicative of the immaturity of web developers. There was once a time when you could mock ridiculous things without being "traumatized" by them.

bschwindHN 11y ago

Yes, how "insane" I actually think it was nice of the developer to say "Hey, you can install this with npm or bower". And if you don't like either, you can grab the source yourself. Or you can just not use it and move on. I wouldn't use this myself just because I think using flexbox on its own is great. And there are plenty of problems in web development today. But calling it "insane" just feels like you were looking for something trivial to get upset about.

tambourine_man 11y ago
Excess of tools is not trivial, it's the main problem with web development today, IMO.
- bschwindHN 11y ago
  They are two widely used tools in the web dev industry. The developer of this CSS framework is simply supporting users of those tools, they're not deserving of this criticism. But I do agree that web dev tooling could use a lot of work. Grd did not set out to solve that.
  - tambourine_man 11y ago
    I agree it's not "insane" to include NPM, but I do feel a trend of over complicating things that should be simple. A 4 page static website, for example, shouldn't need model view controller, package manager, routing, etc.
    - joshmanders 11y ago
      How is a simple package.json file included in the repo "over complicating things"?
      - tambourine_man 11y ago
        The question is at which point you feel the need for a package manager. I tend to err on the side working as simple as possible. Adding tools only when things seem like they can get out of hand, not before.

thomasz 11y ago

There you go: https://1000ch.github.io/grd/dist/grd.css https://1000ch.github.io/grd/dist/grd.css

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

lolidaisuki 11y ago

Not only does the installation with npm take at least 20 minutes but you install anywhere between 250 and 400 dependencies for those 37 lines of CSS.