4 ms·

If you want to make a critical argument for people to make such a large sacrifice, stop using so much rhetoric. The story of Rosa Parks has been heavily editori

by jonesb6 11y ago

If you want to make a critical argument for people to make such a large sacrifice, stop using so much rhetoric. The story of Rosa Parks has been heavily editorialized and she was in fact not the first person to stand up to bus segregation. The first person was Claudette Colvin who refused to give up her seat on the bus March 2nd, 1955, a full 9 months before Rosa Parks [1]. The problem with Claudette Colvin was that she was a pregnant teenager, and the father was a married man. I am by no means demeaning Rosa Parks. What she did was incredibly brave. I am however pointing out that you are willing to tell other people to sacrifice their jobs by editorializing. That strikes me as immoral, and I believe those at Apple will need to make such a decision honestly and without subterfuge if such a tremendous action is to occur. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudette_Colvin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claudette_Colvin Edit: I have 820 karma remaining and will happily throw the rest of it away for this comment, even if not a single one of you post a counter-argument to what I am saying.

xacaxulu 11y ago
This is a fairly balanced, cogent and thoughtful response to the overall thread. I too would welcome dissenting arguments presented instead of the knee-jerk downvote.
- mattmanser 11y ago
  I don't see what relevance it has apart from being pedantic. It didn't add to the discussion at hand. The people back then running the campaign knew good PR, so what.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    So, we should know good PR in this time and date, as well? But understand what is PR and what is too much idealism.
dclowd9901 11y ago
You're not wrong about Rosa Parks, but I'm not sure how it applies any differently. Whether her example (though not the premier example) inspires someone to take up civil disobedience or not is entirely up to how she had inspired that person. The fact remains that she did engage in civil disobedience so why does it matter that she wasn't the first?
- jonesb6 11y ago
  It had nothing to do with Rosa Parks specifically. I was pointing out to the OP that we can't sit here in our ivory desk chairs and tell other people to make a large sacrifice based on some superficial ethos argument. If you want to truly inspire people you do so with honesty and good intentions. You don't grasp at straws and tell people they can be Rosa Parks if they do what you say. I will concede that explicit is better then implicit, but I seized the opportunity to clear up a historical inaccuracy in the process.
  - dclowd9901 11y ago
    Sorry but you spent a good deal of your argument undermining Rosa Parks' contribution to civil disobedience so it's hard to swallow that it had nothing to do with her in particular. And believe me: I'm all about not invoking easy references to drum up BS patriotism, but if that's your point, then say it like I just did. I might also add that you yourself would probably benefit by putting something on the line before you make a career out of siezing on opportunities to clear up historical inaccuracies. Unless I somehow stumbled upon talking to Malala Yousafzi.
    - ptaipale 11y ago
      I don't see that as "undermining". It's more that Rosa Parks is very symbolic, but in many ways she was "standing on the shoulders of giants", and we see her, the symbol, but not the giants.
  - lmm 11y ago
    > If you want to truly inspire people you do so with honesty and good intentions. No-one is being dishonest. No-one in this thread claimed Parks was the first. You're attacking a strawman. > You don't grasp at straws and tell people they can be Rosa Parks if they do what you say. Um what? Doesn't the history - the fact that Parks' act wasn't spontaneous but was in fact planned and organized - exactly align with that?
pcrh 11y ago
>will happily throw the rest of it away for this comment "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his [karma] for his friends." John 15:13
studentrob 11y ago
I think both of you are being pretty negative. There is a way to refute the parent post without demeaning his opinion, and in my opinion, another commenter did better at that than you. Thanks for sharing details about Claudette, I didn't know that.
serge2k 11y ago
> Edit: I have 820 karma remaining and will happily throw the rest of it away for this comment Oh wow, sacrificing internet points. I think your talk about Rosa parks does little to nothing to further your point.
lizardskull 11y ago
It would be good not to forget Bayard Rustin either. "Rustin was also a pioneer in the movement to desegregate interstate bus travel. In 1942, he boarded a bus in Louisville, bound for Nashville, and sat in the second row. A number of drivers asked him to move to the back, according to Southern practice of Jim Crow, but Rustin refused. The bus was stopped by police 13 miles north of Nashville and Rustin was arrested. He was beaten and taken to the police station, but was released uncharged" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin
unethical_ban 11y ago
I think people have responded honestly that your line of reasoning is not consistent. You go on a tear about Rosa Parks, then argue it's not about Rosa. It's like your arguing that no one on HN should encourage people to take part in civil disobedience, if someone is in the position to do so. I strongly disagree with that, as well.
specialist 11y ago
About Rosa Parks' civil disobedience: It was pre-planned, they had a strategy, it was coordinated. Ad hoc civil disobedience won't accomplish much, is very easy to ignore, dismiss. I've organized activists for change. Our accomplishments were very modest. Our efforts would have had much greater impact if I had first learned how to play the game. Goal setting, messaging (framing), working the public relations, social networking, organizing volunteers, letter writing, attend public hearings, finding allies, etc, etc. There are plenty of books and training available to teach future change agents how to be effective. "Power concedes nothing without a demand." -- Frederick Douglas
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  At some point it becomes theatre, like the fools who climbed aboard a Google bus and pretended to be entitled prats yelling out the window. That's evil. So be careful how much scripting you do. It can come back and bite you. Seeming authentic and spontaneous, isn't as good as actually being that.
  - specialist 11y ago
    All politics is theater. Aka rhetoric. You're always playing to the audience. Some play the game better than others. Concern trolling is just yet another way to mute, suppress, inhibit action. When you've tried, failed, picked yourself back up, cleaned yourself up, and then tried again, eventually succeeding... Then I'll be able to hear your concerns.
    - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
      ...and that's how stunts like the Google bus happen. Folks keep rationalizing to themselves "its in a good cause".
dang 11y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295364 and marked it off-topic.

by jonesb6 11y ago

xacaxulu 11y ago

This is a fairly balanced, cogent and thoughtful response to the overall thread. I too would welcome dissenting arguments presented instead of the knee-jerk downvote.

mattmanser 11y ago
I don't see what relevance it has apart from being pedantic. It didn't add to the discussion at hand. The people back then running the campaign knew good PR, so what.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  So, we should know good PR in this time and date, as well? But understand what is PR and what is too much idealism.

dclowd9901 11y ago

You're not wrong about Rosa Parks, but I'm not sure how it applies any differently. Whether her example (though not the premier example) inspires someone to take up civil disobedience or not is entirely up to how she had inspired that person. The fact remains that she did engage in civil disobedience so why does it matter that she wasn't the first?

jonesb6 11y ago
It had nothing to do with Rosa Parks specifically. I was pointing out to the OP that we can't sit here in our ivory desk chairs and tell other people to make a large sacrifice based on some superficial ethos argument. If you want to truly inspire people you do so with honesty and good intentions. You don't grasp at straws and tell people they can be Rosa Parks if they do what you say. I will concede that explicit is better then implicit, but I seized the opportunity to clear up a historical inaccuracy in the process.
- dclowd9901 11y ago
  Sorry but you spent a good deal of your argument undermining Rosa Parks' contribution to civil disobedience so it's hard to swallow that it had nothing to do with her in particular. And believe me: I'm all about not invoking easy references to drum up BS patriotism, but if that's your point, then say it like I just did. I might also add that you yourself would probably benefit by putting something on the line before you make a career out of siezing on opportunities to clear up historical inaccuracies. Unless I somehow stumbled upon talking to Malala Yousafzi.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    I don't see that as "undermining". It's more that Rosa Parks is very symbolic, but in many ways she was "standing on the shoulders of giants", and we see her, the symbol, but not the giants.
- lmm 11y ago
  > If you want to truly inspire people you do so with honesty and good intentions. No-one is being dishonest. No-one in this thread claimed Parks was the first. You're attacking a strawman. > You don't grasp at straws and tell people they can be Rosa Parks if they do what you say. Um what? Doesn't the history - the fact that Parks' act wasn't spontaneous but was in fact planned and organized - exactly align with that?

pcrh 11y ago

>will happily throw the rest of it away for this comment "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his [karma] for his friends." John 15:13

studentrob 11y ago

I think both of you are being pretty negative. There is a way to refute the parent post without demeaning his opinion, and in my opinion, another commenter did better at that than you. Thanks for sharing details about Claudette, I didn't know that.

serge2k 11y ago

> Edit: I have 820 karma remaining and will happily throw the rest of it away for this comment Oh wow, sacrificing internet points. I think your talk about Rosa parks does little to nothing to further your point.

lizardskull 11y ago

It would be good not to forget Bayard Rustin either. "Rustin was also a pioneer in the movement to desegregate interstate bus travel. In 1942, he boarded a bus in Louisville, bound for Nashville, and sat in the second row. A number of drivers asked him to move to the back, according to Southern practice of Jim Crow, but Rustin refused. The bus was stopped by police 13 miles north of Nashville and Rustin was arrested. He was beaten and taken to the police station, but was released uncharged" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin

unethical_ban 11y ago

I think people have responded honestly that your line of reasoning is not consistent. You go on a tear about Rosa Parks, then argue it's not about Rosa. It's like your arguing that no one on HN should encourage people to take part in civil disobedience, if someone is in the position to do so. I strongly disagree with that, as well.

specialist 11y ago

About Rosa Parks' civil disobedience: It was pre-planned, they had a strategy, it was coordinated. Ad hoc civil disobedience won't accomplish much, is very easy to ignore, dismiss. I've organized activists for change. Our accomplishments were very modest. Our efforts would have had much greater impact if I had first learned how to play the game. Goal setting, messaging (framing), working the public relations, social networking, organizing volunteers, letter writing, attend public hearings, finding allies, etc, etc. There are plenty of books and training available to teach future change agents how to be effective. "Power concedes nothing without a demand." -- Frederick Douglas

JoeAltmaier 11y ago
At some point it becomes theatre, like the fools who climbed aboard a Google bus and pretended to be entitled prats yelling out the window. That's evil. So be careful how much scripting you do. It can come back and bite you. Seeming authentic and spontaneous, isn't as good as actually being that.
- specialist 11y ago
  All politics is theater. Aka rhetoric. You're always playing to the audience. Some play the game better than others. Concern trolling is just yet another way to mute, suppress, inhibit action. When you've tried, failed, picked yourself back up, cleaned yourself up, and then tried again, eventually succeeding... Then I'll be able to hear your concerns.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    ...and that's how stunts like the Google bus happen. Folks keep rationalizing to themselves "its in a good cause".

dang 11y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295364 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11295364 and marked it off-topic.