7 ms·

“Person of Interest”: The TV Show That Predicted Edward Snowden (2014)

93 points by Deinos 11y ago

mirimir 11y ago
Maybe he watched it ;) He did plan, and took considerable risks to get the access that he needed. That is what's so bloody impressive.
- bcook 11y ago
  Every interview with Snowden, as a pseudo-clinical paranoia-level security nerd, I tried to critique his security decisions, but I was surprised to see that he really did think through every decision he made. That is what impressed me. A generally impressive human, in many ways.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    If Snowden had been less clever or resourceful he'd be stuck in solitary confinement right now instead of giving interviews. Playing chicken with the mightiest organizations on the planet and getting away with it is extremely impressive and in many ways it shows the dangers to powerful organizations like these: individuals, acting on impulse or because of convictions. And that's precisely why all that data collection is so scary, such individuals will be shunted onto dead-end tracks long before they even realize they are such individuals in the future.
    - bcook 11y ago
      Indeed, we have seen well-meaning but overly impulsive whistle-blowers like Bradley Manning get utterly ruined by their "mistakes".
      - projct 11y ago
        Chelsea Manning.
        bcook 11y ago
        No offense intended. I (poorly) chose the more common name with regard to the incident I referred to. I was speaking more of the situation rather than the person.
        deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
    - mirimir 11y ago
      Yes. And he didn't do it for money!
  - mirimir 11y ago
    Read his posts as "TheTrueHOOHA" on Ars :) Edit: spelling
    - bcook 11y ago
      Link?
      - mirimir 11y ago
        http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/nsa-leaker-ed-snowdens-life-on-ars-technica/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/nsa-leaker-ed-sno... TheTrueHOOHA Ars Scholae Palatinae
  - ocdtrekkie 11y ago
    The one question I never had an answer to, and maybe he answered it somewhere. But neither China nor Russia seemed like good destinations. It feels like maybe he could've chosen one of the extradition free countries he eventually wanted asylum in as his first destination... since nobody knew what he had done before he left the country. Did he ever give an answer to that?
    - tatterdemalion 11y ago
      I think he has said that he believed Hong Kong was the best destination to avoid raising flags before he left the US that would've prevented his travel (and possibly to lead to his arrest and the seizure of the documents before they were released) and to avoid being extradited once he made the reveal.
    - Jerry2 11y ago
      >But neither China nor Russia seemed like good destinations. They're actually the only countries that he could have escaped safely to and only countries where he could lead a relatively safe life due to their security apparatus. There isn't a single other country in the world that could have resisted the full pressure of US government. Not a single one! Yes, I know that Ecuador offered him asylum but they cooled down on it [0] and backtracked when US State Department started bearing down on them. Venezuela is also not a great option due to their instability (US friendly gov is only one coup away) and due to the fact that it's crawling with mercenaries. >It feels like maybe he could've chosen one of the extradition free countries he eventually wanted asylum in as his first destination... since nobody knew what he had done before he left the country. Extradition-free doesn't mean that he'd be safe from pressure of the US legal/espionage/economic power, spies, assassins, mercenaries and so on. [1] Which country do you think would shelter him if it risked economic sanctions from US, NATO and EU? >Did he ever give an answer to that? No, but Assange said that getting him to Russia was their priority because it was the only safe option for him and they'd be able to withstand the pressure of US diplomacy and law enforcement. He owes his life to Sarah Harrison and Julian Assange. [2] Without them he'd probably be dead or in prison or in some black site being tortured. He is also incredibly lucky that US started sanctioning Russia before he decided to seek asylum there so a threat of sanctions didn't phase Putin in the slightest. [0] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/28/edward-snowden-ecuador-julian-assange http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/28/edward-snowden-... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/29/julian-assange-told-edward-snowdon-not-seek-asylum-in-latin-america http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/29/julian-assange-... [2] https://www.rt.com/news/313829-assange-advise-snowden-russia/ https://www.rt.com/news/313829-assange-advise-snowden-russia...
SocksCanClose 11y ago
Let us now pause, and write in praise of POI. Not for any political reason (Snowden, et. al.), but because the writers have created genuine science fiction. I can't recall who said it -- perhaps one of the greats (ACC, PKD) -- but good scifi takes the world as it is, and changes one very small thing (in this case: genuine AI). Such a pleasure to watch. I know, I know, many folks on HN will point out technical shortcomings, but as someone who has straddled these many worlds (natsec, digital security, privacy), I see them reflected here in a glorious alternative universe that is thought provoking, entrancing, mesmerizing.
- ocdtrekkie 11y ago
  Indeed. Person of Interest has struck me as one of the most prescient scifi shows of our era, while remaining incredibly entertaining and understandable to the general viewer. They definitely stepped up the 'future' with the warring AIs, but just the basic premise of incredible surveillance and predictive technologies, and how that could be used for good or evil was fantastic. Another show that did some awesome science fiction in the last few years was Continuum. A lot of it was heavily based on the concept of corporations (particularly tech corporations) gaining a strong influence in or control over our government. To the extent of having a 'corporate congress'.
- Spooky23 11y ago
  The first two seasons were amazing. I think they were more successful than they thought they would be, and didn't think the story out well beyond that. In was also amazing that it was a CBS show, given their typical fare.
- EFruit 11y ago
  >Such a pleasure to watch. I know, I know, many folks on HN will point out technical shortcomings After you get past the first season, (if you accept the premise of an omniscient, digitally omnipotent artificial superintelligence that oversees the world), there are really very few technical errors. In the first season, your standard crime-drama tech mistakes apply (malformed IP addresses, someone invading a computer system with a DDoS, randomly placed PCB overlays, etc.) As the show progressed in to its second and third seasons, I was surprised to see the protagonists' computers sporting GNOME taskbars. EDIT: There are its fair share of minor discrepancies in various things like shell syntax and code formatting (like using Greek symbols in C code), but the point I was trying to make is that PoI's accuracy was overall very impressive. This impressiveness is amplified when compared with a series like CSI: Cyber, a show which does a far worse job of writing believable technobabble and designing realistic UIs, despite such things being arguably more critical to CSI: Cyber.
jacquesm 11y ago
The prediction component of the machine is not currently on the radar or even the real problem. That's 'minority report' grade stuff and doesn't need to be explained or given wider distribution. What is the problem is that given this mountain of data and a dollop of selective enforcement could mean the end of democracy as we currently know it. It doesn't have to happen overnight, it doesn't have to happen everywhere. But it might be enough to tip the balance in favor of a world that we'd all recognize as something to avoid. And how to illustrate this without pointing to horrors past and without seeming to be undue alarmist is becoming harder and harder. Having 'nothing to hide' is the mantra by which many people make their decisions and cast their support, and programs like 'earnest voice' are seeding the crowds with distracting talking points. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope...
- SocksCanClose 11y ago
  yes of course -- and i don't mean this facetiously, but "that's why they call it science fiction". as for your second point -- i'm not sure it's not happening right now.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    > as for your second point -- i'm not sure it's not happening right now. That's both the curse and the beauty of it. As the perpetrators of such a scheme you could totally get away with it and we'd all be as oblivious about it as could be. Johnny has ambitions to go and make some real and unfortunate changes, let's give him a really well paying job and shower him with toys until he's distracted to the point of giving up his ambitions. Manipulation works better the more subtle it is and the longer before a certain course of action the smaller the deviation from the path to avoid the course of action entirely.
    - SocksCanClose 11y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction
muddi900 11y ago
The show also evolved very naturally; from a decent crime procedural to a Batman pastiche to neo-Cyberpunk to exploring Transhumanism.
propogandist 11y ago
it's called conditioning
rubberstamp 11y ago
Waiting for next season like forever. Hope its not shelved. I was hooked after the pilot. Its a welcome break from the recurring theme that we see in most series now a days. Given our current corrupt and power hungry world situation with disregard for ethics in many government agencies everywhere, this is more or less accurate on what the situation might become, given an AI is in the mix.
stevetrewick 11y ago
I got bored around halfway through season 1 and stopped watching it. Picked up Season 2 on Netflix and binged the rest after that. It ramps from standard 'randos form unlikely crime fighting team[0]' with a dystopian twist through 'vast surveillance state conspiracy' to 'post AI FOOM WTF?' quickly and at times quite profoundly. I got much the same feeling from later eps as I did watching Ex Machina : "Yes, this is fiction and highly speculative fiction at that but holy fuck, for once someone has actually bothered to do some research on the technology and the philosophical implications" So if like me you dropped this, be sure to pick it back up, you won't be disappointed. [0] And thus we can be sure that real life is not like TV because if it were nearly everyone in the US would be part of an unlikely and seemingly mismatched but somehow highly successful crime (including monsters) fighting team.
- ilamparithi 11y ago
  I did the exact thing. The first season episodes were so predictable and boring like a Dan Brown plot. I couldn't make myself to watch the second season. May be I should give it another try.

93 points by Deinos 11y ago

Maybe he watched it ;) He did plan, and took considerable risks to get the access that he needed. That is what's so bloody impressive.

bcook 11y ago
Every interview with Snowden, as a pseudo-clinical paranoia-level security nerd, I tried to critique his security decisions, but I was surprised to see that he really did think through every decision he made. That is what impressed me. A generally impressive human, in many ways.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  If Snowden had been less clever or resourceful he'd be stuck in solitary confinement right now instead of giving interviews. Playing chicken with the mightiest organizations on the planet and getting away with it is extremely impressive and in many ways it shows the dangers to powerful organizations like these: individuals, acting on impulse or because of convictions. And that's precisely why all that data collection is so scary, such individuals will be shunted onto dead-end tracks long before they even realize they are such individuals in the future.
  - bcook 11y ago
    Indeed, we have seen well-meaning but overly impulsive whistle-blowers like Bradley Manning get utterly ruined by their "mistakes".
    - projct 11y ago
      Chelsea Manning.
      - bcook 11y ago
        No offense intended. I (poorly) chose the more common name with regard to the incident I referred to. I was speaking more of the situation rather than the person.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
  - mirimir 11y ago
    Yes. And he didn't do it for money!
- mirimir 11y ago
  Read his posts as "TheTrueHOOHA" on Ars :) Edit: spelling
  - bcook 11y ago
    Link?
    - mirimir 11y ago
      http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/nsa-leaker-ed-snowdens-life-on-ars-technica/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/06/nsa-leaker-ed-sno... TheTrueHOOHA Ars Scholae Palatinae
- ocdtrekkie 11y ago
  The one question I never had an answer to, and maybe he answered it somewhere. But neither China nor Russia seemed like good destinations. It feels like maybe he could've chosen one of the extradition free countries he eventually wanted asylum in as his first destination... since nobody knew what he had done before he left the country. Did he ever give an answer to that?
  - tatterdemalion 11y ago
    I think he has said that he believed Hong Kong was the best destination to avoid raising flags before he left the US that would've prevented his travel (and possibly to lead to his arrest and the seizure of the documents before they were released) and to avoid being extradited once he made the reveal.
  - Jerry2 11y ago
    >But neither China nor Russia seemed like good destinations. They're actually the only countries that he could have escaped safely to and only countries where he could lead a relatively safe life due to their security apparatus. There isn't a single other country in the world that could have resisted the full pressure of US government. Not a single one! Yes, I know that Ecuador offered him asylum but they cooled down on it [0] and backtracked when US State Department started bearing down on them. Venezuela is also not a great option due to their instability (US friendly gov is only one coup away) and due to the fact that it's crawling with mercenaries. >It feels like maybe he could've chosen one of the extradition free countries he eventually wanted asylum in as his first destination... since nobody knew what he had done before he left the country. Extradition-free doesn't mean that he'd be safe from pressure of the US legal/espionage/economic power, spies, assassins, mercenaries and so on. [1] Which country do you think would shelter him if it risked economic sanctions from US, NATO and EU? >Did he ever give an answer to that? No, but Assange said that getting him to Russia was their priority because it was the only safe option for him and they'd be able to withstand the pressure of US diplomacy and law enforcement. He owes his life to Sarah Harrison and Julian Assange. [2] Without them he'd probably be dead or in prison or in some black site being tortured. He is also incredibly lucky that US started sanctioning Russia before he decided to seek asylum there so a threat of sanctions didn't phase Putin in the slightest. [0] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/28/edward-snowden-ecuador-julian-assange http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/28/edward-snowden-... [1] http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/29/julian-assange-told-edward-snowdon-not-seek-asylum-in-latin-america http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/aug/29/julian-assange-... [2] https://www.rt.com/news/313829-assange-advise-snowden-russia/ https://www.rt.com/news/313829-assange-advise-snowden-russia...

SocksCanClose 11y ago

Let us now pause, and write in praise of POI. Not for any political reason (Snowden, et. al.), but because the writers have created genuine science fiction. I can't recall who said it -- perhaps one of the greats (ACC, PKD) -- but good scifi takes the world as it is, and changes one very small thing (in this case: genuine AI). Such a pleasure to watch. I know, I know, many folks on HN will point out technical shortcomings, but as someone who has straddled these many worlds (natsec, digital security, privacy), I see them reflected here in a glorious alternative universe that is thought provoking, entrancing, mesmerizing.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago
Indeed. Person of Interest has struck me as one of the most prescient scifi shows of our era, while remaining incredibly entertaining and understandable to the general viewer. They definitely stepped up the 'future' with the warring AIs, but just the basic premise of incredible surveillance and predictive technologies, and how that could be used for good or evil was fantastic. Another show that did some awesome science fiction in the last few years was Continuum. A lot of it was heavily based on the concept of corporations (particularly tech corporations) gaining a strong influence in or control over our government. To the extent of having a 'corporate congress'.
Spooky23 11y ago
The first two seasons were amazing. I think they were more successful than they thought they would be, and didn't think the story out well beyond that. In was also amazing that it was a CBS show, given their typical fare.
EFruit 11y ago
>Such a pleasure to watch. I know, I know, many folks on HN will point out technical shortcomings After you get past the first season, (if you accept the premise of an omniscient, digitally omnipotent artificial superintelligence that oversees the world), there are really very few technical errors. In the first season, your standard crime-drama tech mistakes apply (malformed IP addresses, someone invading a computer system with a DDoS, randomly placed PCB overlays, etc.) As the show progressed in to its second and third seasons, I was surprised to see the protagonists' computers sporting GNOME taskbars. EDIT: There are its fair share of minor discrepancies in various things like shell syntax and code formatting (like using Greek symbols in C code), but the point I was trying to make is that PoI's accuracy was overall very impressive. This impressiveness is amplified when compared with a series like CSI: Cyber, a show which does a far worse job of writing believable technobabble and designing realistic UIs, despite such things being arguably more critical to CSI: Cyber.

jacquesm 11y ago

The prediction component of the machine is not currently on the radar or even the real problem. That's 'minority report' grade stuff and doesn't need to be explained or given wider distribution. What is the problem is that given this mountain of data and a dollop of selective enforcement could mean the end of democracy as we currently know it. It doesn't have to happen overnight, it doesn't have to happen everywhere. But it might be enough to tip the balance in favor of a world that we'd all recognize as something to avoid. And how to illustrate this without pointing to horrors past and without seeming to be undue alarmist is becoming harder and harder. Having 'nothing to hide' is the mantra by which many people make their decisions and cast their support, and programs like 'earnest voice' are seeding the crowds with distracting talking points. http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-operation-social-networks http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/mar/17/us-spy-ope...

SocksCanClose 11y ago
yes of course -- and i don't mean this facetiously, but "that's why they call it science fiction". as for your second point -- i'm not sure it's not happening right now.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  > as for your second point -- i'm not sure it's not happening right now. That's both the curse and the beauty of it. As the perpetrators of such a scheme you could totally get away with it and we'd all be as oblivious about it as could be. Johnny has ambitions to go and make some real and unfortunate changes, let's give him a really well paying job and shower him with toys until he's distracted to the point of giving up his ambitions. Manipulation works better the more subtle it is and the longer before a certain course of action the smaller the deviation from the path to avoid the course of action entirely.
  - SocksCanClose 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

muddi900 11y ago

The show also evolved very naturally; from a decent crime procedural to a Batman pastiche to neo-Cyberpunk to exploring Transhumanism.

propogandist 11y ago

it's called conditioning

rubberstamp 11y ago

Waiting for next season like forever. Hope its not shelved. I was hooked after the pilot. Its a welcome break from the recurring theme that we see in most series now a days. Given our current corrupt and power hungry world situation with disregard for ethics in many government agencies everywhere, this is more or less accurate on what the situation might become, given an AI is in the mix.

stevetrewick 11y ago

I got bored around halfway through season 1 and stopped watching it. Picked up Season 2 on Netflix and binged the rest after that. It ramps from standard 'randos form unlikely crime fighting team[0]' with a dystopian twist through 'vast surveillance state conspiracy' to 'post AI FOOM WTF?' quickly and at times quite profoundly. I got much the same feeling from later eps as I did watching Ex Machina : "Yes, this is fiction and highly speculative fiction at that but holy fuck, for once someone has actually bothered to do some research on the technology and the philosophical implications" So if like me you dropped this, be sure to pick it back up, you won't be disappointed. [0] And thus we can be sure that real life is not like TV because if it were nearly everyone in the US would be part of an unlikely and seemingly mismatched but somehow highly successful crime (including monsters) fighting team.

ilamparithi 11y ago
I did the exact thing. The first season episodes were so predictable and boring like a Dan Brown plot. I couldn't make myself to watch the second season. May be I should give it another try.