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Last month my hardware start-up was almost shut down because our power supplies are CEC efficiency level 5 and not 6. Customs would have seized our entire last

Last month my hardware start-up was almost shut down because our power supplies are CEC efficiency level 5 and not 6. Customs would have seized our entire last shipment. Prior to that I got a cease and desist from the Bluetooth SIG unless I immediately paid $2500 to $10000. I paid immediately. I have no problem following regulations and paying for licenses. The problem is getting blind-sided by it. I still don't even understand if I need a RoHS certification to ship in my home state of California. Is there any resource you found helpful ? Thanks in advance.

JonFish85 11y ago
"I have no problem following regulations and paying for licenses. The problem is getting blind-sided by it. I still don't even understand if I need a RoHS certification to ship in my home state of California. Is there any resource you found helpful ? Thanks in advance." At least in my own work this has been something that pops up time & time again. Not only are there regulations that are tricky to nail down, there are things like intellectual property that you may not even be aware you're using. Build a blinking LED to detect activity on a data line? Wouldn't be surprised to receive a letter from a law firm. And unfortunately I don't know of any great ways to avoid the nasty surprise of receiving patent-backed threats. Personally I think this is why the big companies bulk up on patents, so that they can at least promise Mutually Assured Destruction against each other. For smaller companies & people selling products, you're probably infringing on some patent that they own without even realizing it.
- louprado 11y ago
  Random IP lawsuits aside, there are known agencies/certifications/requirements, etc that may eventually require compliance. Here's the ones I know: RoHS, CEC?, UL, FCC, Wifi Alliance, Bluetooth SIG, please add if anyone else knows. I get that the OP is about pre-release startups and the general advice is "don't worry certifications; just ship". But this became a problem just 90 days after our product launch. Had the timing been worse it could kill a new company.
  - JonFish85 11y ago
    USB-IF, I2C (usually people will say "I2C-compatible", or Two-Wire Interface to avoid paying a royalty) are two others that come to mind immediately. Edit: Basically any interface logos you use (stickers above ports) are probably owned by someone.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
dalanmiller 11y ago
Does your device use bluetooth in a special way or just general purpose Bluetooth usage? Did you have to pay that much just to put the "Bluetooth certified" logo somewhere?
- louprado 11y ago
  You could owe licensing fees just by putting the word Bluetooth on your website. We didn't have the Bluetooth Certified Logo anywhere and still don't. If your App uses Bluetooth the fee is around $100 per platform, but since it is a hardware product (my product, GarageMate, is a garage door opener App), the payment due is much higher. It doesn't matter if you are pre-release. And if you change the chipset you have to pay again. Note, you could save a few thousand by using a pre-certified module. FYI, the Bluetooth SIG's enforcement lawyer called right after I signed up for their free membership using my company e-mail address.
Undertow10 11y ago
Can you elaborate more on the events that led up to customs potentially seizing your power supplies? We have heard shipments for other companies have gone through with no problem.
Undertow10 11y ago
For what it's worth, here is an excerpt from the Bluetooth SIG agreement that you probably accepted when signing up on their site: "BLUETOOTH TRADEMARK LICENSE AGREEMENT This Bluetooth Trademark License Agreement (the “License”) is made as of the date of acceptance by you as a member of Bluetooth SIG, Inc., a Delaware corporation (“Bluetooth SIG”), as evidenced by you entering into the Bluetooth SIG Membership Agreement by clicking the “I Accept” button at the bottom of the Bluetooth SIG Membership Application and Commitment Agreement. Effective upon such date, Bluetooth SIG, having ownership of the Bluetooth Trademarks (as defined below) hereby grants you the following rights related to such Bluetooth Trademarks in consideration for your acceptance of the terms and conditions of the Bluetooth SIG Membership Agreement." .... "2 LICENSE GRANT. 2.1 Scope. Subject to the Member complying with the terms and conditions of the Membership Agreement, this License and the Instructions, Bluetooth SIG hereby grants Member a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, nontransferable (with no right to sublicense), personal right to use the Bluetooth Trademark(s) in relation to production, manufacture, supply, promotion, marketing, sale, lease or other distribution and advertisement of Bluetooth Services and/or Bluetooth Products that include Compliant Portions (the “Trademark License”)."

JonFish85 11y ago

"I have no problem following regulations and paying for licenses. The problem is getting blind-sided by it. I still don't even understand if I need a RoHS certification to ship in my home state of California. Is there any resource you found helpful ? Thanks in advance." At least in my own work this has been something that pops up time & time again. Not only are there regulations that are tricky to nail down, there are things like intellectual property that you may not even be aware you're using. Build a blinking LED to detect activity on a data line? Wouldn't be surprised to receive a letter from a law firm. And unfortunately I don't know of any great ways to avoid the nasty surprise of receiving patent-backed threats. Personally I think this is why the big companies bulk up on patents, so that they can at least promise Mutually Assured Destruction against each other. For smaller companies & people selling products, you're probably infringing on some patent that they own without even realizing it.

louprado 11y ago
Random IP lawsuits aside, there are known agencies/certifications/requirements, etc that may eventually require compliance. Here's the ones I know: RoHS, CEC?, UL, FCC, Wifi Alliance, Bluetooth SIG, please add if anyone else knows. I get that the OP is about pre-release startups and the general advice is "don't worry certifications; just ship". But this became a problem just 90 days after our product launch. Had the timing been worse it could kill a new company.
- JonFish85 11y ago
  USB-IF, I2C (usually people will say "I2C-compatible", or Two-Wire Interface to avoid paying a royalty) are two others that come to mind immediately. Edit: Basically any interface logos you use (stickers above ports) are probably owned by someone.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

dalanmiller 11y ago

Does your device use bluetooth in a special way or just general purpose Bluetooth usage? Did you have to pay that much just to put the "Bluetooth certified" logo somewhere?

louprado 11y ago
You could owe licensing fees just by putting the word Bluetooth on your website. We didn't have the Bluetooth Certified Logo anywhere and still don't. If your App uses Bluetooth the fee is around $100 per platform, but since it is a hardware product (my product, GarageMate, is a garage door opener App), the payment due is much higher. It doesn't matter if you are pre-release. And if you change the chipset you have to pay again. Note, you could save a few thousand by using a pre-certified module. FYI, the Bluetooth SIG's enforcement lawyer called right after I signed up for their free membership using my company e-mail address.

Undertow10 11y ago

Can you elaborate more on the events that led up to customs potentially seizing your power supplies? We have heard shipments for other companies have gone through with no problem.

Undertow10 11y ago

For what it's worth, here is an excerpt from the Bluetooth SIG agreement that you probably accepted when signing up on their site: "BLUETOOTH TRADEMARK LICENSE AGREEMENT This Bluetooth Trademark License Agreement (the “License”) is made as of the date of acceptance by you as a member of Bluetooth SIG, Inc., a Delaware corporation (“Bluetooth SIG”), as evidenced by you entering into the Bluetooth SIG Membership Agreement by clicking the “I Accept” button at the bottom of the Bluetooth SIG Membership Application and Commitment Agreement. Effective upon such date, Bluetooth SIG, having ownership of the Bluetooth Trademarks (as defined below) hereby grants you the following rights related to such Bluetooth Trademarks in consideration for your acceptance of the terms and conditions of the Bluetooth SIG Membership Agreement." .... "2 LICENSE GRANT. 2.1 Scope. Subject to the Member complying with the terms and conditions of the Membership Agreement, this License and the Instructions, Bluetooth SIG hereby grants Member a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive, nontransferable (with no right to sublicense), personal right to use the Bluetooth Trademark(s) in relation to production, manufacture, supply, promotion, marketing, sale, lease or other distribution and advertisement of Bluetooth Services and/or Bluetooth Products that include Compliant Portions (the “Trademark License”)."