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A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal

• stuaxo 11y ago
  I'm curious where you are based, been worried about a similar thing happening, but doesn't seem to yet - (am based in UK).
  • jcadam 11y ago
    Oh, I'm in Florida. The local market isn't that great (though I am presently employed) so I've been interviewing for remote jobs.
    • drubio 11y ago
      Remote is insanity now a days, it was a reasonable market a few years ago but not anymore. There's a glut on both the supply and demand sides. Many years ago there was a limited demand for remote work, which probably tapered the supply, but in my experience from every 3 leads you followed (granted you had the experience), 2 were promising and 1 was almost always an offer. Now a days it's more like you need to follow 30 leads to get one 'meh' answer. I don't feel it's an age issue, it's just a general market condition. With more companies acceptance of remote work, mixed in with the "we can't find local talent" mantra, the hiring process has turned more hands-off which in turn is producing these insane hiring procedures and cycles. To make matters worse, everything from the smallest start-up to the largest tech company is adopting the same 'exclusive hiring practices' while they sit back wait for the resumes to roll in and/or send in work samples. All of this is hands-off trying to get candidates to 'fill slots' costs them next to nothing until the final phases. But for candidates it's just a time consuming PITA. My only advice is to treat the process as any business transaction. Try to gauge how much they are invested in the hiring process, if they are asking you for hours or days on end while they appear to invest a couple of minutes of 'human time' RUN! These are lottery-like odds of landing an offer and unfortunatly this is endemic in large companies as well as unknown startups.
      • pyb 11y ago
        That those 'exclusive hiring practices' still attract candidates shows an excess of supply, no? It's the current market.
      • jsprogrammer 11y ago
        >Try to gauge how much they are invested in the hiring process, if they are asking you for hours or days on end while they appear to invest a couple of minutes of 'human time' RUN! Alternatively, give them your hourly rate and expectation that you will be paid for all work performed, including "hiring homework". That should weed out much of the illegitimate prospective employers.
      • ElysianEagle 11y ago
        >To make matters worse, everything from the smallest start-up to the largest tech company is adopting the same 'exclusive hiring practices' while they sit back wait for the resumes to roll in and/or send in work samples. So true. I've found myself back on the market recently and what I'm finding is a large number of companies resorting to HackerRank pre-screens where they pick out anywhere from 3-6 puzzle-type coding challenges, give you an hour or so to complete them and if you don't nail them all, you're out. And that's just for the initial screening - there's no guarantee you'll make it past the N phone screens and in-persons you'll have after the initial screening. Insanity, indeed. I hope someone writes a book on the crazy hiring practices in our industry, compared to other fields. Maybe I will someday - have to land a job first, lol :-/
      • bogomipz 11y ago
        I'm not sure there's a correlation between remote work and insane hiring processes. That doesn't sound correct. Also I think that lots of this ridiculous behavior is in S.F. and the Valley. There are plenty of tech companies that exist out side the confines of cliche shallow bubble culture.
• otabdeveloper1 11y ago
  > ... and even told me he thought I was a better programmer than him. Probably that's exactly why you were ignored. The guy was scared of competition. (Maybe they were looking for a tech lead and he felt threatened by your expertise.)
  • kejaed 11y ago
    A's hire A's and B's hire C's. http://www.hrdusa.com/As_hire_As.html http://www.hrdusa.com/As_hire_As.html
    • Someone1234 11y ago
      That seems more aspirational than realistic.
      • dashoffset 11y ago
        That's because B's are much more common than A's.
    • jameshart 11y ago
      And since everybody knows they're an A, the only explanation for a 'no hire' decision must be that the interviewer is a B.
      • ska 11y ago
        Or more likely the overwhelming majority of people who think they are "A" just aren't. Funnily enough, often people who clearly are top rate don't think so (impostor syndrome). Dunning–Kruger appears to be very healthy in development circles.
        • iolothebard 11y ago
          I'm a C, I hire A++ and steal all the credit!
• mtberatwork 11y ago
  > The fact that so many employers treat candidates like this Don't give up. Most established companies aren't run by 20-somethings. If the seniors are already in their mid-20s and lack professionalism, then most likely there are other issues going on at this company. You may have dodged the proverbial bullet.
  • maxaf 11y ago
    > You may have dodged the proverbial bullet. Wish I could upvote this twice! Every rejection I've ever received came with an information-rich sideband that told me more about the prospective employer than an acceptance would have. In at least half of such cases I said to myself: "phew, that was a bullet I was lucky to dodge... imagine how it might feel to work with these people!"
    • smarks 11y ago
      +1 for the phrase "information-rich sideband".
    • ryandrake 11y ago
      Often the "information sideband" is the very fact that the company decided to cut off all communication as a way to convey rejection. If they treat random people that way, how do you think they treat people who are obligated to be on their worksite every day? Companies: DON'T DO THIS! I, for one, actively discourage smart friends from interviewing at places that treat candidates like shit.
      • maxaf 11y ago
        This is especially hilarious^W demoralizing when the same company continues to actively recruit across all available channels. Successive waves of aggressive recruiter spam from some of my past "dead silence" rejections continue to cause hilarity^W^W rub salt on the wound to this day.
        • ryandrake 11y ago
• kelvin0 11y ago
  Never underestimate the dark powers of an incompetent HR department. Not saying this is the case here, but sure has the looks of it ... The person that interviewed was a programmer. The follow up to an interview is usually done by HR. As stated earlier, this is simply an observation I made throughout the years when being in contact with various HR departments. Your mileage may vary.
  • iolothebard 11y ago
    Any interview I've ever had where HR is involved is somewhere I would never work. Last time this happened I was informed that Russian and Indian are races. Talking about my coworkers by their country of origin (I was saying how refreshing it was to work with a broad array of people in SF vs what I normally work with [white male] in Oklahoma.) Russian is a race. Seriously. HR employees are worthless in my experience (~35 years in the labor force).
    • logfromblammo 11y ago
      Only worthless? You've been lucky. I have learned from my experience that HR is at best an enormous obstruction that must be continually worked around, and is at worst an enemy to whom you should never show your back. Or your belly, for that matter.
    • Chris2048 11y ago
      > (I was saying how refreshing it was to work with a broad array of people in SF vs what I normally work with [white male] in Oklahoma That's a dickish thing to say about white men :-/
      • iolothebard 11y ago
        How is this a dickish thing to say about white men. I am a white man. Having worked with 1 woman in 15 years in Oklahoma & Texas in development I worked with roughly 60/40 (men to women) developer teams in the Bay Area. Also the broad array of cultures and experiences brings different opinions to the table as well. It wasn't intended as a slant against white men, it was more a happy dividend that I didn't realize I was missing (diversity). SF is rather diverse, but in IT competency still matters far more than gender, race, etc.
• yandrypozo 11y ago
  `"it's hard to find good developers" line is a lie` Indeed, I agree
• kyleblarson 11y ago
  So you complain about age bias by invoking age bias?
• ones_and_zeros 11y ago
  Ageism is a thing in our industry. This may not be it but in other professions it is uncommon for those in the middle of their career to be applying for positions cold, there is usually an intro involved or in the case of the medical fields credentialing does this. As engineers we have poor soft skills that lead to weak professional networks (we think of our selves as mercenaries) and we don't have credentials of any sort. So it looks a bit weird to them and the thought process is something like "this guy is talented, what is wrong with him that he's a walk on? I'm not willing to find out, pass."
  • mratzloff 11y ago
    As engineers we have poor soft skills that lead to weak professional networks Yeah, I dunno. I mean, some have poor soft skills, definitely. But I would argue that engineers in many companies are simply insulated more than other groups. The biggest reason for this is that Engineering is thought of as a cost center, which has a number of resulting consequences. Other groups like Product are exposed to many other groups (Sales, BD, Exec, Engineering) and so naturally their networks are larger and more diverse.
• NotSammyHagar 11y ago
  No feedback is extremely irritating, but common. I know a lot of companies are afraid to give feedback because they don't want to get sued. I worked at a startup where we did give people feedback, immediately, and they were often very surprised. Companies may reject people who are otherwise a technical match for lots of reasons - maybe there was some personality quirk of the interviewer where he didn't like you. It's also hard to hire someone who is smarter than you. And of course your unfortunate experience is just one anecdote. I hope you found another job that evaluated you better. My current company was getting some poor candidates who passed the phone screen (the phone screen was the usual 1 hour code something in a google docs while we both look at it) type of screen. So we added a homework problem that takes a couple of hours to pull off. I found when I interviewed I had no interest in coding or following each companies stupid and arbitrary interview process. I do worry that it's too much of a pointless pain - but we have been able to reject a few people at the "homework" stage because they were just atrocious. If someone has been a public github contributor, that should be even better than a homework problem.
• kozukumi 11y ago
  > A couple of months ago I did a 'homework' assignment for an interview (it involved writing a simple REST service in go, even though I have at least one personal project demonstrating exactly this skill -- to an even greater degree -- in my github profile). I would have asked them to look at that code and ask me any question they have about it. If they are not willing to do that I wouldn't have bothered continuing the conversation with them. > the mid 20-something lead developer Okay I am going to do something I don't like to do which is judge somebody on their age but a "lead developer" at around 25? Sorry but unless that person is some rockstar programmer (conceived with a copy of K&R in the womb) I find it very hard to believe somebody 3-4 years out of uni has the experience to be a "lead" at very much. > told me he thought I was a better programmer than him. Well that is something I guess, at least he didn't think he was God's gift to the programming world! > Now, what do you suppose happened next? I never heard from them again and all of my attempts at communication were ignored. Yes drives me insane. It is so fucking rude. > I'm starting to think my age is becoming a factor (mid 30s) Could be, hopefully not but a company that puts a mid-20-something as the "lead" developer might only be interested in getting young and therefore cheap employees. > and also these kids have no sense of respect and professional courtesy. Very true. That is partly why I don't think a mid-20s person can be a "lead" for much as they don't have the professional experience to lead. A lead developer isn't just a great programmer but also a great leader. Somebody for the regular staff to look up to and rely on for mentorship. > I'd like to say this was an isolated incident, but that would be a lie. It happens to us all. Some companies (IT and other) are shit. It is just the way of the world. Don't dwell on it too much, it is just more mental energy wasted and they already wasted a whole Saturday of your life yet were not even respectful enough to call and say "you were great but we prefer this other person". I mostly hate having that conversation (giving and receiving) but it has to be done, it is about respecting that persons time and even though you are not offering them a job you can offer them feedback so they do not walk away from the process empty handed. Sometimes that feedback is all they need to better themselves in the future. > Stupid me just spent his Saturday doing another such project, though at least this one presented a more interesting problem. Live and learn. In the future if you already have demonstrations of your work then ask them to look at that first and if they want to continue the process then you look at doing something specific for them. At least you seem to have found a small positive from it in that the problem was interesting :) > The fact that so many employers treat candidates like this tells me that the whole "it's hard to find good developers" line is a lie. A lot of the problems with finding a good dev is just finding a good employee for the company as a whole. You might have a good developer who is an asshole and will only cause issues. Anyway just move on and forget about them. It is cliché relationship advice but you deserve better than them.
• dfraser992 11y ago
  mid 30s? you're at the top of your game, mentally. I'm mid 40s and the memory is definitely a bit shot. There are other factors in my situation as well, but past 43, you start sensing it. I can certainly still program, but interviewing...I'm tired of it. Tired of being asked picayune questions like I just graduated. Maybe I should I change my CV title from 'Senior Software Engineer'... that actually implies 30-something, late 20s. but what? "Part time CTO and dog's body for a few small startups/companies"? I know I can do most anything I put some effort into, the relearning process is not hard. But everyone wants a warm body they can immediately plug in. I get interest due to my CV, but they want to stick me into jobs I'm too senior for. I need to figure out what to change... or tell recruiters, no absolutely not, no more front end work, ever! well, my advice is start planning your career change now - I wish I had 10 years ago, instead of merely idly thinking about it.
  • deleted 11y ago
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• Mahn 11y ago
  From my experience on both sides of the table, 90% of the times average companies will always pick the candidate that is cheaper (that is, the one that asks for the least salary), not the one that is most skilled. So don't beat yourself over this, you simply can get unlucky when there's competition, even if you skills are sound.
• eranation 11y ago
  Sounds like a typical young startup hiring process (young mostly on the age of the company not the employees although it's hard to ignore the correlation) More established companies will probably have 30 to mid 30 as the median age, and will have much more professional hiring process (relatively) Also there is a saying that goes around: A's hire A's, B's hire C's There are cases where you will be declined as "overqualified" or "no cultural fit" when they mean "will replace my job or at best make me look bad" and "too old" respectively. I wouldn't give up yet. There are a lot of software architect positions if you have the relevant experience. Median age is higher than 30 I'm pretty sure. But the "we don't have enough developers" is a blunt lie, "we don't have enough excellent developers" is also a lie. "We don't have enough rock star developers who are ok not being paid enough and have no aspiration to become team leads and just want to code all their career and work overtime" is probably more accurate.
• drumttocs8 11y ago
  You may have just built part of his product for him. I wonder how the front-end interview went...?
• rcurry 11y ago
  "I never heard from them again and all of my attempts at communication were ignored." Unfortunately, this seems to be par for the course these days - I have a lot of friends who complain about the same thing. It's just indicative of a total lack of professional courtesy, and you should consider yourself lucky that you didn't end up working with people like that.
  • Kluny 11y ago
    Lucky, sure, but I wish there were some kind of consequences for behaving that way. Seems like there's no incentive to act professionally and businesses know they can get away with it, so "ghosting" is now standard business practice.
    • spitfire 11y ago
      Name them and shame them. Spread the news within your network. Keep a record of the behaviour - they are burnt for the rest of time.
• burgessaccount 11y ago
  I think there is a fundamental incentives problem in hiring - employers don't have a strong incentive to treat candidates well, because either they won't need to hire again soon, or they will be trying to hire someone who really wants a job who will forgive them for bad treatment. It's a good argument for moving to a recruiter model - companies have a stronger incentive to treat recruiting companies well if they want to keep having top talent referred to them. (This idea is spelled out in this post from a while back: http://blog.hireart.com/is-it-time-to-centralize-hiring/ http://blog.hireart.com/is-it-time-to-centralize-hiring/)
• dominotw 11y ago
  I've noticed that your github profile doesn't even get looked at until you jump through all the standard phonescreen/homework hoops. Even after than many interviewers look at your resume like 10 minutes before the interview there is no chance that they would read through your code on github. github as your resume is overrated. I am curious to know if people hire or get hired purely based on their github profile without a technical interview.
  • pyb 11y ago
    Same here, companies don't ever look at my Github code. I built up a portfolio partly in the hope to make future interviews easier, but it hasn't worked at all!
    • dominotw 11y ago
      I have like 3 projects with > 1000 stars and they are used in production by atleast couple of people. But, noone gives a shit about that they would rather have me reversing a binary tree on a whiteboard.
      • pyb 11y ago
        That "github is the new resume" meme a few years ago was quite funny, in retrospect. People panicking that they'd never be able to get another job, as they didn't have free time to code at the weekend...
      • nobleach 11y ago
        I remember reading that comment about Google... even though a ton of people at Google use Homebrew. The question is, what would would you be writing at Google? Would you be reversing binary trees? Would you need to instantly know which sorting algorithm would be most efficient at the drop of a hat? or would you be building more tools like you already have. The one thing that isn't immediately clear from your GitHub is if YOU wrote the code and HOW you wrote the code. I'm not defending worthless practices like asking you all kinds of CS riddles that the interviewer doesn't even remember... but I am saying that there are reasons to test your ability to reason through a legitimate problem. Because of this, I am a huge fan of this style of interviewing: "We have a problem... tell us how you might approach solving this. What resources would you use? Why?"
• mordocai 11y ago
  To be fair to "us kids" 30 year old+ hirers pull the same exact shit (I say this from experience as a 24 year old). I'd say in this particular case the guy felt threatened and/or you were too expensive(or assumed to be too expensive)
• r2dnb 11y ago
  I am sorry to hear that and I understand your frustration. As someone else said : Keep going. And do not doubt what you're worth. You know, the thing is there's nothing new, you're just seeing today what the illusion of the paycheck prevented you to see before. Take this as an opportunity to move your life forward : no matter how exciting your next job is, give to yourself a deadline to bootstrap a SAAS business as a nightjob and have enough customer within 6 months to - at least - replace your salary.
• jorgecurio 11y ago
  They want someone who uses asynchronous programming in coffeescript to build a blog and use shit load of preprocessors and if the library was just released on HN they expect you to use it in production and deal with it. Don't do these take homework projects. Don't work for free.
  • binaryblitz 11y ago
    My company has you write a simple twitter clone using the php framework we use. If you know the framework, it shouldn't take you more than an hour, if that. I see nothing wrong with simple projects like this. We only ask you to do it after your initial interview to make sure you're a fit personality wise.
    • deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
    • dhd415 11y ago
      You're screening more for knowledge of the particular php framework that you use than general programming ability. Which is fine if that's your intention.
    • jorgecurio 11y ago
      Your company would be far down my list. I'm not working for free if what I do isn't open source. If I'm working on a proprietary product I expect to be paid for it. If you told me to do this take home assignment I would've politely smiled and said 'sure let me do it right away'. Then I go home, research more about your product and the market, try out your demo product, figure out how things work and release an open source version and make it free. Surely, that is a much better indicator than 'Build a CRUD using Yii'. A few years ago, I did this to one company I interviewed at who were super arrogant and condescending. I just checked their website and it returns 404. Looks like people prefered my free open source version instead of paying them for it. Don't fuck with me.
    • collyw 11y ago
      Just like the "simple tagcloud from instagram API, shouldn't take more than a couple of hours." I got given last month. Two hours of messing about on Instagram trying to get an authentication token for their API I eventually figured it out, only to realize I was authenticated in some sand boxed mode, so only meta-data was being returned. I needed to have the acccount approved before I could use it properly. That was a waste of two hours of my life.
• FilterSweep 11y ago
  "it's hard to find good developers".........who can implement a super-efficient malloc and free in a coding interview within 6 hours when applying to a CRUD/REST app job at a CRUD/REST app salary
  • epicureanideal 11y ago
    Are low level engineers much better compensated? Do you see $300-400k salary for this kind of work?
• mixmastamyk 11y ago
  Wish I could say my experience was different but no. Well, at least I've been given quick rejections.
• MollyR 11y ago
  its hard finding good (CHEAP) developers
  • mooreds 11y ago
    The market clearing price is higher than many buyers (employers) would like, that's for sure.
• whybroke 11y ago
  >The fact that so many employers treat candidates like this tells me that the whole "it's hard to find good developers" line is a lie. That is correct. The market is so flooded with workers that ageism is easily affordable. You can keep trying if you want but the suggestion "it will all work out if you just try harder because the system is ultimately rational" is inaccurate and unproductive. If you glance around the work place and count the percentage of people 10 years older than you, you can guesstimate the odds of continued employment. dfraser992 advice is, unfortunately, they way the world really works: neither ageism nor the flood of workers is going to be widely admitted to let alone addressed in the foreseeable future.
• st3v3r 11y ago
  "The fact that so many employers treat candidates like this tells me that the whole "it's hard to find good developers" line is a lie." It's not a lie, you just forgot the last half of that sentence. "It's hard to find good developers, who are willing to work for the peanuts I'm offering."
• b3b0p 11y ago
  From experience and being on both sides of the table it's probably a good sign they didn't contact you. Maybe it depends on the company, but for smaller companies and startups it's not only if you can do what they need it's if you fit in and the other employees like you and want to work with you. You don't want to hire or work with a jack ass, especially smaller teams. You could be the best developer/programmer/engineer in the world, but if no one wants to work with you, well, they probably won't contact or hire you. It could be for the better and I'm not saying you are a jack ass. You might start there and after a month or 6 decide you don't fit in, feel miserable, and don't like the environment and decide to leave and have to go through this all over again. Keep at it. Eventually you will find a company that wants your expertise and you enjoy working for and like people you work with. Both sides have to ultimately decide on a good balance. Technical abilities are not the only factor and I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it's an age issue. As an aside I have not come across any issues with age and I'm in my lower-30's. I think it has less to do with age and more to do with how your present yourself, act, work, and communicate. No one believes I'm even nearing 30 when I interview or am being interviewed for example and it's never actually been brought up or mentioned for me that I recall.
• baoha 11y ago
  One trick I often use these days is using these run-by-20-something companies as practice places before I meet the one that I really like to work for. So when it comes to the time I consider to move one, just say "Yes" to all incoming LinkedIn invitation. It worked well 2 times for me already for the last 5 years.
• iolothebard 11y ago
  I've had this happen multiple times. Why would you hire your own replacement? (This is how they think.) When they have someone hiring not based on what's best for the company but what's best for their own career goals, you know you're going to have issues. Welcome to the world of tailoring yourself for the job. I'm in my 40s, so it gets worse. Can't wait until I'm over 50!
  • protomyth 11y ago
    > Welcome to the world of tailoring yourself for the job. I'm in my 40s, so it gets worse. Can't wait until I'm over 50! It seems like someone could get a pretty good staff if they targeted all the late 30+ people.
    • iolothebard 11y ago
      Maybe, we tend to put up with less nonsense though. However, that's typically beneficial to business as well. The only software engineers I've ever worked with that actually consider the costs are those that have either owned their own companies (startups/etc) or are older (and know the trade offs from decades of dealing with them).
• ccannon 11y ago
  If you're in the Philly area and want to work for a great company drop me a line at ccannon@50onred.com. We treat our candidates with the respect they deserve.
• raverbashing 11y ago
  > and also these kids have no sense of respect and professional courtesy Yeah, this is so true it hurts Not only kids mind you
• haylem 11y ago
  I agree it's frustrating - and I've been on both sides of that fence - but still... it always puzzles me when someone seems to get worked up over the fact they didn't seem to get the callback they expected even though they had been told they were probably good enough. Why do people simply forget about the possibility that someone even better showed up right after them and got the spot instead, and rightfully so? It doesn't (necessarily) mean you were bad, or that they lied to you, or anything of the sort. It might just mean they had other candidates who fared even better. Also, in these cases, I'd recommend you simply call back yourself. Think of it as the opposite of the judicial system (for the US and most of Europe, at least): the burden of proof is on the prosecution. In this case, it's on the job-seeker. You're the one who has to show you want the job and that you're the best fit. The company's role is to find a good fit (and to do so by using their resources in a reasonable way). That being said, I wouldn't advise on doing "homework" assignments that are exceedingly long. For the record, when I am on the recruiting side of the fence, I always do a phone screening first, with live coding in a shared editor. Only then might remote homework or on site coding come up, and I always tried to make sure the effort is minimal. It's hard to find something that fits all people and minds though. Try to design a recruiting scheme, and let me know how it works out and if it doesn't piss anyone off. :) The courtesy thing is another issue entirely, of course, and obviously a lot less defendable...
• ClayFerguson 11y ago
  I wish everybody would start just refusing to do these homework assignments. I always do. I think they know they lost a great developer when I just walk away. In a way it's just sort of them getting what they deserve (loss of a great worker), but if developers would just simply refuse these homework assignments, everybody would be better of. Homework is a stupid waste of time for young children, and it is as stupid silly waste of time for job candidates also.
  • noarchy 11y ago
    I have to concur with this. The interview process in tech seems like a hazing ritual, at times. In the current market, we should be able to use our leverage, as talent, to bring about some change in hiring practices.
• bogomipz 11y ago
  Yep, the lack of professional courtesy evident in things like asking someone to write an API from scratch and then abandoning any communication with that candidate seems to be a hallmark of the 20 something tech dweeb. And sadly this behavior is now routine. It also speaks to a larger red flag - namely that the company is letting someone so short on professionalism represent the company. The sad thing is that this is so common. Its not just limited to the 20 something developer but also the clueless HR flunkie/recruiters. The upside is that you usually spot these things quite early and can decline to pursue these things further. There are no shortage of companies that need someone your age who have been around the block and can bring professionalism in addition to a wealth of experience. Don't sell yourself short. Even if they called you back after a month of ignoring you would you really want to work for them? Probably not. Generally ding dongs like that are only capable of hiring other ding dongs(confirmation bias), hold out for working with adults. You age is an asset not liability.