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...because the criminals are. And therein lies to fatal flaw of gun control - only people who are law abiding would comply with the new laws.

by hnal943 11y ago

LyndsySimon 11y ago
I don't believe that US criminals are more heavily-armed than those in other countries. In fact, the opposite is likely true. In the US most criminals who are armed have inexpensive, unreliable handguns. An armed criminal in the UK (while less common) would seem more likely to have something like a submachinegun or a machine pistol. If the penalty is severe and the gun is rare and expensive... why go through all that trouble and risk for a .32 revolver, when you could just as easily obtain a Skorpion?
- maxerickson 11y ago
  What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm? Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles. I'm not going to go find the facts and figures, still, I'm pretty sure that the incidence of gun crime is higher in the US, pointing out that gun buying criminals in the UK probably buy nicer guns doesn't change that.
  - LyndsySimon 11y ago
    > What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm? There are likely a greater portion of unarmed criminals in the UK. Since their potential victims are also unarmed, that means that are at the mercy of physically dominating criminals. I fail to see how this is an improvement. > Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles. Practically speaking, a person with a 6" knife can do far more damage to a person and have a higher likelihood of inflicting a mortal wound than someone with a .38 revolver. > I'm not going to go find the facts and figures, still, I'm pretty sure that the incidence of gun crime is higher in the US, pointing out that gun buying criminals in the UK probably buy nicer guns doesn't change that. Yeah, me neither, and rates don't really factor into this thread. My entire point is that more restrictions means that it's in the best interest of an armed criminal to obtain the most effective firearm possible.
    - maxerickson 11y ago
      A statement like I don't believe that US criminals are more heavily-armed than those in other countries. sure sounds like a statement that is inclusive of rates to me. Say 1 guy uses a legitimate high caliber machine gun to commit some crime, is that the only crime that gets used when describing how criminals are armed in that country?
      - LyndsySimon 11y ago
        OK, let me rephrase then - "I believe that the average effectiveness of the weapons possessed by those criminals who are armed with firearms in jurisdictions where firearms are heavily restricted is almost certainly much greater than the average effectiveness of the weapons possessed by those criminals who are armed with firearms in jurisdictions with comparatively permissive firearms laws"
        maxerickson 11y ago
        Cool beans, my mission is accomplished. This is a much softer claim than the one in your comment above. edit: I changed 'weaker' to 'softer', because it's a stronger claim, it's likely to stand up to scrutiny, it's almost a banality.
        bazzargh 11y ago
        Without wanting to weigh in on the rest of the gun debate issues, statistics don't show criminals in the UK having more effective firearms, in fact just the opposite. More than half of the firearms offences in England&Wales involved the use of air weapons, a substantial number of the rest are imitation weapons, and only 12 of over 8,000 recorded violent crimes involved a machine gun (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/focus-on-violent-crime-and-sexual-offences--2012-13/rft-table-3.xls http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/htt... table 3.02) A study by the police of the gun crime market (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http:/rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hors298.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/htt...) concluded that automatic weapons were mostly used in gang warfare and as a status symbol; they're more expensive and the study noted that ammunition for all weapons was in short supply, which would make a bullet-hungry gun less attractive for other criminal usage (which is mainly to threaten). With an imitation gun going for £20 and an automatic costing £1000, why would you choose the real gun to commit a robbery?
- pjc50 11y ago
  You're thinking like an American: bigger is better :) UK armed robberies are often [citation needed] carried out with imitation or deactivated firearms, as the robbers neither need nor want to kill anyone and it's considerably cheaper, easier to get hold of, and less illegal. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_352297.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/htt... page 6 has a breakdown graph into shotguns, handguns, imitation (includes air and BB), and "other".
- ascorbic 11y ago
  Because you couldn't just as easily. It's hard and expensive for a criminal to get hold of even a real revolver. Machine pistols and submachineguns are the preserve of organised crime. There's no way any regular criminal will be able to get their hands on one. Most handguns used by criminals are reactivated antiques and replicas. Guns are rare and expensive, but some are rarer and more expensive than others. Even when handguns were legal they were not common, as the licensing laws were already tight.
psychometry 11y ago
Sigh...good guys with guns, again? Right. Your good guy with a gun is only that up until the moment he decides to go on a mass shooting spree. Is he still a good guy with a gun then?
- TallGuyShort 11y ago
  That's why we should stop thinking that government employees are always good guys too. I've been through more background checks than most cops, and through about as much training as most young cops - but that doesn't make a difference in most gun control schemes that get discussed in the US.
  - LyndsySimon 11y ago
    Hear, hear!
firethief 11y ago
You seem to be dividing people into "law abiding" and "law disregarding". I posit that it's more complicated, and a law can disincentivize an activity even for people who break other laws.

...because the criminals are. And therein lies to fatal flaw of gun control - only people who are law abiding would comply with the new laws.

by hnal943 11y ago

...because the criminals are. And therein lies to fatal flaw of gun control - only people who are law abiding would comply with the new laws.

LyndsySimon 11y ago

I don't believe that US criminals are more heavily-armed than those in other countries. In fact, the opposite is likely true. In the US most criminals who are armed have inexpensive, unreliable handguns. An armed criminal in the UK (while less common) would seem more likely to have something like a submachinegun or a machine pistol. If the penalty is severe and the gun is rare and expensive... why go through all that trouble and risk for a .32 revolver, when you could just as easily obtain a Skorpion?

maxerickson 11y ago
What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm? Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles. I'm not going to go find the facts and figures, still, I'm pretty sure that the incidence of gun crime is higher in the US, pointing out that gun buying criminals in the UK probably buy nicer guns doesn't change that.
- LyndsySimon 11y ago
  > What about the criminals in the UK that do not obtain any firearm? There are likely a greater portion of unarmed criminals in the UK. Since their potential victims are also unarmed, that means that are at the mercy of physically dominating criminals. I fail to see how this is an improvement. > Someone carrying a cheap pistol is still more heavily armed than someone carrying brass knuckles. Practically speaking, a person with a 6" knife can do far more damage to a person and have a higher likelihood of inflicting a mortal wound than someone with a .38 revolver. > I'm not going to go find the facts and figures, still, I'm pretty sure that the incidence of gun crime is higher in the US, pointing out that gun buying criminals in the UK probably buy nicer guns doesn't change that. Yeah, me neither, and rates don't really factor into this thread. My entire point is that more restrictions means that it's in the best interest of an armed criminal to obtain the most effective firearm possible.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    A statement like I don't believe that US criminals are more heavily-armed than those in other countries. sure sounds like a statement that is inclusive of rates to me. Say 1 guy uses a legitimate high caliber machine gun to commit some crime, is that the only crime that gets used when describing how criminals are armed in that country?
    - LyndsySimon 11y ago
      OK, let me rephrase then - "I believe that the average effectiveness of the weapons possessed by those criminals who are armed with firearms in jurisdictions where firearms are heavily restricted is almost certainly much greater than the average effectiveness of the weapons possessed by those criminals who are armed with firearms in jurisdictions with comparatively permissive firearms laws"
      - maxerickson 11y ago
        Cool beans, my mission is accomplished. This is a much softer claim than the one in your comment above. edit: I changed 'weaker' to 'softer', because it's a stronger claim, it's likely to stand up to scrutiny, it's almost a banality.
      - bazzargh 11y ago
        Without wanting to weigh in on the rest of the gun debate issues, statistics don't show criminals in the UK having more effective firearms, in fact just the opposite. More than half of the firearms offences in England&Wales involved the use of air weapons, a substantial number of the rest are imitation weapons, and only 12 of over 8,000 recorded violent crimes involved a machine gun (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/crime-stats/crime-statistics/focus-on-violent-crime-and-sexual-offences--2012-13/rft-table-3.xls http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/htt... table 3.02) A study by the police of the gun crime market (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http:/rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hors298.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/htt...) concluded that automatic weapons were mostly used in gang warfare and as a status symbol; they're more expensive and the study noted that ammunition for all weapons was in short supply, which would make a bullet-hungry gun less attractive for other criminal usage (which is mainly to threaten). With an imitation gun going for £20 and an automatic costing £1000, why would you choose the real gun to commit a robbery?
pjc50 11y ago
You're thinking like an American: bigger is better :) UK armed robberies are often [citation needed] carried out with imitation or deactivated firearms, as the robbers neither need nor want to kill anyone and it's considerably cheaper, easier to get hold of, and less illegal. http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_352297.pdf http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/htt... page 6 has a breakdown graph into shotguns, handguns, imitation (includes air and BB), and "other".
ascorbic 11y ago
Because you couldn't just as easily. It's hard and expensive for a criminal to get hold of even a real revolver. Machine pistols and submachineguns are the preserve of organised crime. There's no way any regular criminal will be able to get their hands on one. Most handguns used by criminals are reactivated antiques and replicas. Guns are rare and expensive, but some are rarer and more expensive than others. Even when handguns were legal they were not common, as the licensing laws were already tight.

psychometry 11y ago

Sigh...good guys with guns, again? Right. Your good guy with a gun is only that up until the moment he decides to go on a mass shooting spree. Is he still a good guy with a gun then?

TallGuyShort 11y ago
That's why we should stop thinking that government employees are always good guys too. I've been through more background checks than most cops, and through about as much training as most young cops - but that doesn't make a difference in most gun control schemes that get discussed in the US.
- LyndsySimon 11y ago
  Hear, hear!

firethief 11y ago

You seem to be dividing people into "law abiding" and "law disregarding". I posit that it's more complicated, and a law can disincentivize an activity even for people who break other laws.