7 ms·

Terribly cherry-picked charts there. The UK had a spike in homicides in 2003, so what? The overall trend is clearly downwards. The 2009 firearm homicide rate

by adwf 11y ago

Terribly cherry-picked charts there. The UK had a spike in homicides in 2003, so what? The overall trend is clearly downwards. The 2009 firearm homicide rate is less than half the avg. rate for the 90's and I believe it has only gone down further since (cherry picked date ranges). Ireland had an increase in homicides following gun bans in the 70's? And it was the gun ban that caused it, not the Troubles? Likewise Jamaica - nothing at all to do with the massive increase in drug trafficking flowing through the Carribean, following the start of drug-prohibition in the 70's? EDIT: It turns out the data is dodgy as well. The spike is due to all 170+ of Harold Shipman's murders being recorded solely in 02/03

marrs 11y ago
Just google "gun crime rates in the UK". All the stats I've seen, and what I've been lead to believe in the news, is that gun crime rates have dramatically increased since the handgun ban (and illegal gun ownership has also increased). That's not to imply cause and effect, but I don't see any evidence that the handgun ban did anything to curb gun crime. Licensing rules were already very stringent at the time - you just can't compare it to the US - and Dunblane was a feak incident. I'm not aware of one like it before or since in the UK.
- adwf 11y ago
  Nope, quite the opposite, gun deaths of all sorts are down substantially. Less than half what they used to be. And Dunblane wasn't a freak incident here's one from 1987: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre Here's some data. Very clear downward trends since 1997. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_all_gun_deaths_per_100_000_people http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_a... http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_gun_homicide http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_g... Here's the Australian chart just for good measure: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_all_gun_deaths_per_100_000_people http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_al... Not to mention that of course "gun crime / illegal possession" went up. We'd just made it all illegal by definition...
  - kamjam 11y ago
    The reference to the Australia stats reminds me of the Jim Jefferies sketch on Gun Control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4
    - adwf 11y ago
      Yeah that's an excellent sketch. I think he really does touch on an important point, the only good reason to have guns is because they're fun. Self defense is nonsense and protection from government is even more nonsense nowadays. I'm actually fairly pro-gun (for the UK at least), I think we're quite restrictive on the type of guns allowed (eg. larger calibre rifles would be fun down a range). But at the same time I'm very pro gun-control; they should be licensed, inspected, restricted in type and how/where you're allowed to carry, etc. Overall I'm happy with how it's worked out, I'd rather not have guns than have the problems of mass gun ownership.
      - rsync 11y ago
        "Yeah that's an excellent sketch. I think he really does touch on an important point, the only good reason to have guns is because they're fun. Self defense is nonsense and protection from government is even more nonsense nowadays." You're completely overlooking (dismissing ?) animal husbandry and predator control for livestock, etc. Depending on your location, a rifle (or three) is absolutely necessary to protect animals. On our ranch, we have a herd of sheep that we need to protect from heavy fox and coyote and bobcat predation. We also have to trap raccoons that go after our flock of chickens, so we have a .22 to put them down (no reason to wake up the whole valley with a larger caliber just to kill todays raccoon). Remember that next time you're at the farm to table restaurant eating the local lamb or the free range chicken - "your farmer"[1] uses firearms and considers them essential tools. [1] Popular in the US is a bumper sticker "Know your Farmer, Know your Food" ... or ... "I know my farmer"
        adwf 11y ago
- pjc50 11y ago
  what I've been lead to believe in the news I think I found the problem. Dunblane was a freak incident in the UK, but would be a regular occurence in the US. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/02/mass-shootings-in-america-numbers-more-frequent-more-deadly http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/02/mass-shooting... The mass shooting phenomenon seems to be a side effect of US culture's relationship with violence, and especially "righteous" violence.
  - marrs 11y ago
    I was referring specifically to the situation in the UK because this is what the GP was talking about. I don't know enough about US culture to be able to comment on the issues faced there. I can only say that US citizens appear to have a comfort with firearms that makes me uneasy. But again, a lot of my understanding on this subject comes from the media, so you can take it with a pinch of salt if you like.
cowardlydragon 11y ago
I've heard that somewhere in Somalia some guy had established a 10' x 10' gun free zone, and yet still got killed for a 100% death rate. Clearly laws are useless.
- jjoonathan 11y ago
  So... because England doesn't agree with your agenda it must not be a large enough sample and its laws must have the same legitimacy that you get from the random dictates of some random Somali guy? I see.

by adwf 11y ago

marrs 11y ago

Just google "gun crime rates in the UK". All the stats I've seen, and what I've been lead to believe in the news, is that gun crime rates have dramatically increased since the handgun ban (and illegal gun ownership has also increased). That's not to imply cause and effect, but I don't see any evidence that the handgun ban did anything to curb gun crime. Licensing rules were already very stringent at the time - you just can't compare it to the US - and Dunblane was a feak incident. I'm not aware of one like it before or since in the UK.

adwf 11y ago
Nope, quite the opposite, gun deaths of all sorts are down substantially. Less than half what they used to be. And Dunblane wasn't a freak incident here's one from 1987: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre Here's some data. Very clear downward trends since 1997. http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_all_gun_deaths_per_100_000_people http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_a... http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_gun_homicide http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/192/rate_of_g... Here's the Australian chart just for good measure: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_all_gun_deaths_per_100_000_people http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compareyears/10/rate_of_al... Not to mention that of course "gun crime / illegal possession" went up. We'd just made it all illegal by definition...
- kamjam 11y ago
  The reference to the Australia stats reminds me of the Jim Jefferies sketch on Gun Control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4
  - adwf 11y ago
    Yeah that's an excellent sketch. I think he really does touch on an important point, the only good reason to have guns is because they're fun. Self defense is nonsense and protection from government is even more nonsense nowadays. I'm actually fairly pro-gun (for the UK at least), I think we're quite restrictive on the type of guns allowed (eg. larger calibre rifles would be fun down a range). But at the same time I'm very pro gun-control; they should be licensed, inspected, restricted in type and how/where you're allowed to carry, etc. Overall I'm happy with how it's worked out, I'd rather not have guns than have the problems of mass gun ownership.
    - rsync 11y ago
      "Yeah that's an excellent sketch. I think he really does touch on an important point, the only good reason to have guns is because they're fun. Self defense is nonsense and protection from government is even more nonsense nowadays." You're completely overlooking (dismissing ?) animal husbandry and predator control for livestock, etc. Depending on your location, a rifle (or three) is absolutely necessary to protect animals. On our ranch, we have a herd of sheep that we need to protect from heavy fox and coyote and bobcat predation. We also have to trap raccoons that go after our flock of chickens, so we have a .22 to put them down (no reason to wake up the whole valley with a larger caliber just to kill todays raccoon). Remember that next time you're at the farm to table restaurant eating the local lamb or the free range chicken - "your farmer"[1] uses firearms and considers them essential tools. [1] Popular in the US is a bumper sticker "Know your Farmer, Know your Food" ... or ... "I know my farmer"
      - adwf 11y ago
pjc50 11y ago
what I've been lead to believe in the news I think I found the problem. Dunblane was a freak incident in the UK, but would be a regular occurence in the US. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/02/mass-shootings-in-america-numbers-more-frequent-more-deadly http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/dec/02/mass-shooting... The mass shooting phenomenon seems to be a side effect of US culture's relationship with violence, and especially "righteous" violence.
- marrs 11y ago
  I was referring specifically to the situation in the UK because this is what the GP was talking about. I don't know enough about US culture to be able to comment on the issues faced there. I can only say that US citizens appear to have a comfort with firearms that makes me uneasy. But again, a lot of my understanding on this subject comes from the media, so you can take it with a pinch of salt if you like.

cowardlydragon 11y ago

I've heard that somewhere in Somalia some guy had established a 10' x 10' gun free zone, and yet still got killed for a 100% death rate. Clearly laws are useless.

jjoonathan 11y ago
So... because England doesn't agree with your agenda it must not be a large enough sample and its laws must have the same legitimacy that you get from the random dictates of some random Somali guy? I see.