10 ms·

I really hate having to solve these kind of programming challenges. I've already sent you my CV, with references from former/current employers and co-workers. C

by orng 11y ago

I really hate having to solve these kind of programming challenges. I've already sent you my CV, with references from former/current employers and co-workers. Call them up if you are worried that I'm lying on my résumé, don't waste my time by making me work for the chance of maybe getting a job as only payment. Doing multiple interviews already takes up enough of my time, seeing as I'm the one who has to commute to your location.

robodale 11y ago
Right with you buddy. I no longer accept coding challenges or even interviews that go over 30 min. I tell them my services are $150/hour. If you want me to do a 4-8 hour exercise for the privilege of interviewing further then make it worth my time...just like any other consulting gig I do.
- robodale 11y ago
  I should add that no company has taken me up on my offer. I'm too busy with work to care anyway.
  - NotSammyHagar 11y ago
    Wow, that's self confidence. Paying someone for the homework problem feels semi-okay. But what if you have a no-moonlighting clause at your current job? But asking to be paid during the interview seems too much, even though you could have spent 3 days of your life, traveling each way plus the interview day.
    - avalaunch 11y ago
      Asking to be paid during an interview seems too much but a 4-8 hour interview doesn't seem too much? The average interview length across all industries is 40 minutes. Asking interviewers to spend 4+ hours on the hope of a job offer seems a tall demand. I think asking to be paid seems a fair counter to what is otherwise a very unfair ask.
- driverdan 11y ago
  What you're actually saying is "I have enough freelance / contract work and am not looking for a full time job." I said similar things when I was freelancing. If you were actually looking for a full time position you'd do the interview. It's completely reasonable to require an unpaid interview from a candidate.
  - mamoswined 11y ago
    Not a multi hour one though. My first programming job interview was 6 hours and I had no idea that was even a thing. Now I inform places I'm interviewing "Hey I am taking 1.5 hours vacation/PTO whatever, so I need to be back at work after that time."
mikeash 11y ago
No former employer is going to say "this guy can't program, don't hire him" for fear of getting sued. Co-workers might be friends who are covering for you, or just genuinely have no idea of your actual ability. Taking up hours of a candidate's time is excessive, but it seems reasonable to ask for some demonstration of your ability, when so many candidates simply cannot code.
- orng 11y ago
  > Taking up hours of a candidate's time is excessive, but it seems reasonable to ask for some demonstration of your ability, when so many candidates simply cannot code. So why not simply ask technical questions during an interview? I'd think you'd be able to determine whether or not someone know what he is talking about by simply asking him a few questions on the matter.
  - st3v3r 11y ago
    Because technical questions are pretty bad indicators. Just because someone doesn't remember how to reverse a binary tree off the top of their heads doesn't mean they're not a competent developer.
  - dpeck 11y ago
    Because there are plenty of people who can regurgitate things but not be able to do much with it. I've seen it with CS grads from good schools, its disconcerting and confusing.
    - vonmoltke 11y ago
      Why are you asking "fact regurgitation"-type technical questions? I prefer to ask open-ended ones, questions that start a discussion that will quickly determine if the candidate really understands what they are saying. It also reveals correct but rigid thinking, something I would like to generally avoid but that doesn't always come up in a coding exercise.
    - dandersh 11y ago
kuu 11y ago
I'm with you. Also sending this kind of projects many times requires a time that you don't have when working for another company.
CiPHPerCoder 11y ago
The problem is: Writing good resumes and having a lot of experience with programming is a good heuristic for "experience" and "knows how to play the game" but not meaningfully useful for "excellent at programming". Work-sample tests measure the latter. A worker's experience is a heuristic for programming skill, but a heuristic of a heuristic is like an average of a set of averages: Useless.
- MiddleEndian 11y ago
  Just to play devil's advocate, being excellent at programming is also only a heuristic for working as a professional programmer.
  - eli 11y ago
    Very true! I find it disappointing that many candidates appear to put little effort in their cover letter. It's a chance to show me you can communicate well, which is maybe the single most important skill in working on a team.
    - danbolt 11y ago
      I feel like cover letters are an easy way to show that you've thought about the company you're applying for, but in my experience I've never got the impression that my cover letter was actually read in the application process. I could be plenty wrong though, and I'd love to hear from HR/recruiters about their experiences with cover letters.
      - eli 11y ago
        I dunno. I'm sure some places don't read them at all. But I read (or at least skim) every cover letter that comes across my desk before looking at the resume.
  - CiPHPerCoder 11y ago
    Sure, but it's O(n) rather than O(n^2). Hiring decisions are hard to generalize, because different companies have different needs at different times.
mywittyname 11y ago
We live in an era of FB/LinkedIn. It's really not that hard to contact someone that they've worked with and ask, "did you like working with this guy/gal?"

by orng 11y ago

robodale 11y ago

Right with you buddy. I no longer accept coding challenges or even interviews that go over 30 min. I tell them my services are $150/hour. If you want me to do a 4-8 hour exercise for the privilege of interviewing further then make it worth my time...just like any other consulting gig I do.

robodale 11y ago
I should add that no company has taken me up on my offer. I'm too busy with work to care anyway.
- NotSammyHagar 11y ago
  Wow, that's self confidence. Paying someone for the homework problem feels semi-okay. But what if you have a no-moonlighting clause at your current job? But asking to be paid during the interview seems too much, even though you could have spent 3 days of your life, traveling each way plus the interview day.
  - avalaunch 11y ago
    Asking to be paid during an interview seems too much but a 4-8 hour interview doesn't seem too much? The average interview length across all industries is 40 minutes. Asking interviewers to spend 4+ hours on the hope of a job offer seems a tall demand. I think asking to be paid seems a fair counter to what is otherwise a very unfair ask.
driverdan 11y ago
What you're actually saying is "I have enough freelance / contract work and am not looking for a full time job." I said similar things when I was freelancing. If you were actually looking for a full time position you'd do the interview. It's completely reasonable to require an unpaid interview from a candidate.
- mamoswined 11y ago
  Not a multi hour one though. My first programming job interview was 6 hours and I had no idea that was even a thing. Now I inform places I'm interviewing "Hey I am taking 1.5 hours vacation/PTO whatever, so I need to be back at work after that time."

mikeash 11y ago

No former employer is going to say "this guy can't program, don't hire him" for fear of getting sued. Co-workers might be friends who are covering for you, or just genuinely have no idea of your actual ability. Taking up hours of a candidate's time is excessive, but it seems reasonable to ask for some demonstration of your ability, when so many candidates simply cannot code.

orng 11y ago
> Taking up hours of a candidate's time is excessive, but it seems reasonable to ask for some demonstration of your ability, when so many candidates simply cannot code. So why not simply ask technical questions during an interview? I'd think you'd be able to determine whether or not someone know what he is talking about by simply asking him a few questions on the matter.
- st3v3r 11y ago
  Because technical questions are pretty bad indicators. Just because someone doesn't remember how to reverse a binary tree off the top of their heads doesn't mean they're not a competent developer.
- dpeck 11y ago
  Because there are plenty of people who can regurgitate things but not be able to do much with it. I've seen it with CS grads from good schools, its disconcerting and confusing.
  - vonmoltke 11y ago
    Why are you asking "fact regurgitation"-type technical questions? I prefer to ask open-ended ones, questions that start a discussion that will quickly determine if the candidate really understands what they are saying. It also reveals correct but rigid thinking, something I would like to generally avoid but that doesn't always come up in a coding exercise.
  - dandersh 11y ago

kuu 11y ago

I'm with you. Also sending this kind of projects many times requires a time that you don't have when working for another company.

CiPHPerCoder 11y ago

The problem is: Writing good resumes and having a lot of experience with programming is a good heuristic for "experience" and "knows how to play the game" but not meaningfully useful for "excellent at programming". Work-sample tests measure the latter. A worker's experience is a heuristic for programming skill, but a heuristic of a heuristic is like an average of a set of averages: Useless.

MiddleEndian 11y ago
Just to play devil's advocate, being excellent at programming is also only a heuristic for working as a professional programmer.
- eli 11y ago
  Very true! I find it disappointing that many candidates appear to put little effort in their cover letter. It's a chance to show me you can communicate well, which is maybe the single most important skill in working on a team.
  - danbolt 11y ago
    I feel like cover letters are an easy way to show that you've thought about the company you're applying for, but in my experience I've never got the impression that my cover letter was actually read in the application process. I could be plenty wrong though, and I'd love to hear from HR/recruiters about their experiences with cover letters.
    - eli 11y ago
      I dunno. I'm sure some places don't read them at all. But I read (or at least skim) every cover letter that comes across my desk before looking at the resume.
- CiPHPerCoder 11y ago
  Sure, but it's O(n) rather than O(n^2). Hiring decisions are hard to generalize, because different companies have different needs at different times.

mywittyname 11y ago

We live in an era of FB/LinkedIn. It's really not that hard to contact someone that they've worked with and ask, "did you like working with this guy/gal?"