5 ms·

UK govt does kill its citizens though. Without trial. The restrictions of guns by the government ensures you have no defense from the one entity that has killed

by geggam 11y ago

UK govt does kill its citizens though. Without trial. The restrictions of guns by the government ensures you have no defense from the one entity that has killed more people than anything. Their own govt. http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-green/2015/09/08/when-does-the-uk-government-have-licence-to-kill/ http://blogs.ft.com/david-allen-green/2015/09/08/when-does-t...

jcromartie 11y ago
So, how does it turn out for people who shoot at the police? I'm sorry but you are living in libertarian cowboy fantasy.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Indeed. Somehow I don't think the commentator is a supporter of the Black Panthers, who I think were the last US political group trying to prevent their members being killed by "the government".
Loque 11y ago
Get real. Or a tin foil hat. I am mid thirties, grown up in the UK and not having guns here is amazing. People don't get shot, as a teenager in the council flats in the UK, no-one is going to turn up with a gun, or carry a gun. And unsurprisingly, people make mistakes with guns (accidents happen). I have been forever conflicted, as I love the idea of guns, I wanted them as a kid/teenager, the idea of having such a tool is fascinating. However they are reserved for video games in my life... The only time I may regret this is in some kind of completely hypothetical situation (zombies, aliens, gov gone crazy) which is so unlikely to happen I would rather the tools to kill each other very quickly were not legally available.
- AI_Overlord 11y ago
  Gov gone crazy is not as unlikely as you think. It may only seem that way because of our short lifespan.
  - Loque 11y ago
    Maybe this is subjective, I personally do not think it will happen in the UK. I would also rather take that risk than allow everyone to own guns just for this unknown eventuality... If it assures you in anyway, my grandfather who was in the war, handed in his 1911.
    - geggam 11y ago
      All that tells me is you forget the lessons others have learned the hard way. Experience is a dear teacher but fools will learn no other way.
      - pjc50 11y ago
        Again, we actually had an armed insurrection in the UK in Northern Ireland, including civilians being shot dead by the military, and it offends me to see people fantasising about political violence as some kind of first resort. It went on for decades, killing and immiserating a large number of people.
    - AI_Overlord 11y ago
      The thing is, when the gov goes crazy it is usually against some group of people. If you are not part of that group then you may actually believe the gov is quite sane. Also, all it takes is some really bad times for nice people to elect a tyrant. We've seen it before many times in history. Trump phenomenon fueled on xenophobia, racism, and authoritarianism, which is scary for minorities, is an example of a gov that could go crazy.
      - Loque 11y ago
        I would argue that if Trump gets voted in, it is the people who are crazy. I do see your point though - I guess everything feels very nice and pedestrian here... nothing owning guns would solve anyway. I would also argue that all those xenophobic trump fans can legally own guns... After the last elections in the UK, I don't really trust the "general public" =D
- throwaway049 11y ago
  Shootings are not rare here, but fatal shootings are rare. Here's a link from the same source [0] to a non fatal shooting last night in London. [0] http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/15/brixton-shooting-cctv-captures-gunman-firing-victims-tulse-hill http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/15/brixton-shoot...
- douche 11y ago
  I'm in my late twenties, in rural New England, and having guns here is amazing. People don't get shot, and accidents almost never happen. People that have guns typically have rifles and shotguns for hunting purposes (venison is delicious, by the way), and know enough about them to respect them and use them properly. In my state, provided you aren't a felon, you can purchase a firearm in about an hour, with a simple background check (from your local Walmart, even), and you can apply for a concealed carry permit at your local police station, which they are required by law to grant you within fourteen days, again provided you come back clean on the background check. It's a fantastic state, but then again, it's more akin to living in Iceland than the rest of the country I'm more likely to get hit by a bus or drop dead of an aneurysm than shot and killed by anyone. There's also just a metric fuckton of guns out there, so you'd have a hard time tracking them all down. I'm really not a gun collector, but I've personally got at least a dozen rifles and shotguns, and three or four pistols. You inherit these things... I work with a couple guys that are actually target shooting enthusiasts, and it's amazing the armories that they've put together.
Already__Taken 11y ago
Imagining the mental gymnastics you went through to bring this up was the best laugh I've had all day. Trying to say owning a handgun would prevent a clandestine branch of a first world governments assassination.
- jamespo 11y ago
  Obviously geggam has some Jason Bourne-level skills
- geggam 11y ago
  in simpleton speak.. UK killed a citizen with a drone.... without trial... this means they will use a tool to kill citizens without trial... as have many many other govts in history.... simple economics of scale... your govt cannot afford to drone kill everyone and everyone can afford a rifle / pistol... it will be bloody but an armed citizenry will always win... assuming they care enough to fight
  - pjc50 11y ago
    it will be bloody but an armed citizenry will always win... Who won in Northern Ireland? One of the things that annoys me about this stupid phoney insurgency that's always brought up as a pro-gun argument is that we actually had one in the UK and it was awful.
    - geggam 11y ago
      the USA was founded in another insurgency the UK had... you forget that ?
celticninja 11y ago
As opposed to the USA I assume you mean. Given the number of deaths from police officers alone it hardly supports your argument. You had a revolution once and talk about gun rights as if you were expecting one again. And the threat of one is hardly doing anything to contain your governments continual erosion of all of your other constitutional rights.
kbart 11y ago
How is that related? If your own government, for some reason, decided to kill you, there's not much you can do against a heavily armed SWAT team, with or without your small firearm. And if by this argument you mean that owning firearms en masse somehow keep government in line and ensures democracy, that's a moot point, since there are even (arguably) better functioning democracies than USA all over the world that chose to ban firearms completely except for military/antiterorist use.
pjc50 11y ago
Well, that particular incident was similar to the US killing of a US national in a drone strike, and in neither case does having a firearm really help. Having an actual discussion on armed political conflict vs. the government would involve Northern Ireland, which would take far too long for HN.

by geggam 11y ago

jcromartie 11y ago

So, how does it turn out for people who shoot at the police? I'm sorry but you are living in libertarian cowboy fantasy.

pjc50 11y ago
Indeed. Somehow I don't think the commentator is a supporter of the Black Panthers, who I think were the last US political group trying to prevent their members being killed by "the government".

Loque 11y ago

Get real. Or a tin foil hat. I am mid thirties, grown up in the UK and not having guns here is amazing. People don't get shot, as a teenager in the council flats in the UK, no-one is going to turn up with a gun, or carry a gun. And unsurprisingly, people make mistakes with guns (accidents happen). I have been forever conflicted, as I love the idea of guns, I wanted them as a kid/teenager, the idea of having such a tool is fascinating. However they are reserved for video games in my life... The only time I may regret this is in some kind of completely hypothetical situation (zombies, aliens, gov gone crazy) which is so unlikely to happen I would rather the tools to kill each other very quickly were not legally available.

AI_Overlord 11y ago
Gov gone crazy is not as unlikely as you think. It may only seem that way because of our short lifespan.
- Loque 11y ago
  Maybe this is subjective, I personally do not think it will happen in the UK. I would also rather take that risk than allow everyone to own guns just for this unknown eventuality... If it assures you in anyway, my grandfather who was in the war, handed in his 1911.
  - geggam 11y ago
    All that tells me is you forget the lessons others have learned the hard way. Experience is a dear teacher but fools will learn no other way.
    - pjc50 11y ago
      Again, we actually had an armed insurrection in the UK in Northern Ireland, including civilians being shot dead by the military, and it offends me to see people fantasising about political violence as some kind of first resort. It went on for decades, killing and immiserating a large number of people.
  - AI_Overlord 11y ago
    The thing is, when the gov goes crazy it is usually against some group of people. If you are not part of that group then you may actually believe the gov is quite sane. Also, all it takes is some really bad times for nice people to elect a tyrant. We've seen it before many times in history. Trump phenomenon fueled on xenophobia, racism, and authoritarianism, which is scary for minorities, is an example of a gov that could go crazy.
    - Loque 11y ago
      I would argue that if Trump gets voted in, it is the people who are crazy. I do see your point though - I guess everything feels very nice and pedestrian here... nothing owning guns would solve anyway. I would also argue that all those xenophobic trump fans can legally own guns... After the last elections in the UK, I don't really trust the "general public" =D
throwaway049 11y ago
Shootings are not rare here, but fatal shootings are rare. Here's a link from the same source [0] to a non fatal shooting last night in London. [0] http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/15/brixton-shooting-cctv-captures-gunman-firing-victims-tulse-hill http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/mar/15/brixton-shoot...
douche 11y ago
I'm in my late twenties, in rural New England, and having guns here is amazing. People don't get shot, and accidents almost never happen. People that have guns typically have rifles and shotguns for hunting purposes (venison is delicious, by the way), and know enough about them to respect them and use them properly. In my state, provided you aren't a felon, you can purchase a firearm in about an hour, with a simple background check (from your local Walmart, even), and you can apply for a concealed carry permit at your local police station, which they are required by law to grant you within fourteen days, again provided you come back clean on the background check. It's a fantastic state, but then again, it's more akin to living in Iceland than the rest of the country I'm more likely to get hit by a bus or drop dead of an aneurysm than shot and killed by anyone. There's also just a metric fuckton of guns out there, so you'd have a hard time tracking them all down. I'm really not a gun collector, but I've personally got at least a dozen rifles and shotguns, and three or four pistols. You inherit these things... I work with a couple guys that are actually target shooting enthusiasts, and it's amazing the armories that they've put together.

Already__Taken 11y ago

Imagining the mental gymnastics you went through to bring this up was the best laugh I've had all day. Trying to say owning a handgun would prevent a clandestine branch of a first world governments assassination.

jamespo 11y ago
Obviously geggam has some Jason Bourne-level skills
geggam 11y ago
in simpleton speak.. UK killed a citizen with a drone.... without trial... this means they will use a tool to kill citizens without trial... as have many many other govts in history.... simple economics of scale... your govt cannot afford to drone kill everyone and everyone can afford a rifle / pistol... it will be bloody but an armed citizenry will always win... assuming they care enough to fight
- pjc50 11y ago
  it will be bloody but an armed citizenry will always win... Who won in Northern Ireland? One of the things that annoys me about this stupid phoney insurgency that's always brought up as a pro-gun argument is that we actually had one in the UK and it was awful.
  - geggam 11y ago
    the USA was founded in another insurgency the UK had... you forget that ?

celticninja 11y ago

As opposed to the USA I assume you mean. Given the number of deaths from police officers alone it hardly supports your argument. You had a revolution once and talk about gun rights as if you were expecting one again. And the threat of one is hardly doing anything to contain your governments continual erosion of all of your other constitutional rights.

kbart 11y ago

How is that related? If your own government, for some reason, decided to kill you, there's not much you can do against a heavily armed SWAT team, with or without your small firearm. And if by this argument you mean that owning firearms en masse somehow keep government in line and ensures democracy, that's a moot point, since there are even (arguably) better functioning democracies than USA all over the world that chose to ban firearms completely except for military/antiterorist use.

pjc50 11y ago

Well, that particular incident was similar to the US killing of a US national in a drone strike, and in neither case does having a firearm really help. Having an actual discussion on armed political conflict vs. the government would involve Northern Ireland, which would take far too long for HN.