5 ms·

By the way, for those who want to learn by themselves, there are a lot of ways to play Go against a computer in a way that is friendly for beginners. My rough

By the way, for those who want to learn by themselves, there are a lot of ways to play Go against a computer in a way that is friendly for beginners. My rough journey so far - on a Mac, but much of this can be done on Linux - I started out playing 9x9 games against Gnugo, giving myself as much handicap as possible (without it resigning immediately), and then removing stones as I improve. I got to the point where I could sometimes beat 9x9 when I started with two extra stones, and then I started with 19x19. Took me a while to win 19x19 with 9 stones, but then I won by learning a bit more about extending on hane. Then you can improve from there. After that point, you can also switch to fuego or pachi, which are stronger by default. The end result is it really is easy and possible to learn a ton just by playing against software, tracking your ability throughout, just by picking programs with different strength and handicap levels. I've also enjoyed using GoGui to pit two computer programs against each other and watch how they play with various handicaps. Then there's all the puzzles - goproblems.com, smartgo, etc. Finally, there are plenty of ebooks you can buy through smartgo books. This doesn't get into playing against humans on the various servers, but there's plenty of information about that online.

i_don_t_know 11y ago
Which program do you use on the Mac? A long time ago I've used Goban[1] and I enjoyed it very much, but it's not available here in the App Store and apparently it doesn't fully work yet on El Capitan. (I don't know if it's not available right now because of the El Capitan problems or for some other reason.) What are some good go programs for the iPhone, both for playing and for learning/improving? [1] http://www.sente.ch/?p=1206&lang=en http://www.sente.ch/?p=1206&lang=en
- tunesmith 11y ago
  Goban is working for me on El Capitan, but I installed it before upgrading. There's also the older free version which might still be up on a webpage somewhere. But the better option is that I was able to get GoGui working - I did have to manually build/compile it myself but there is a way to build it so that it creates a real OS X Application. It's quite good, you can set any board position and then tell a computer program to respond from that point. http://gogui.sourceforge.net http://gogui.sourceforge.net EDIT: For the iPhone I like SmartGo Kifu for playing games. 'Tsumego Pro' and 'GoProblems' for puzzles (they're adaptive) and 'Go Books' by smartgo for ebooks.
  - rimantas 11y ago
    I second the SmarGo Kifu
- weavie 11y ago
  He mentions GnuGo (https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/ https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/)
- cooper12 11y ago
  The old free version still works: http://www.sente.ch/software/goban3/ http://www.sente.ch/software/goban3/. You want the universal binary. The newer one isn't available in the app store for me either.
  - i_don_t_know 11y ago
    Perfect. Thank you!
hudibras 11y ago
Thanks, that's very useful info.
dannysu 11y ago
I also just found out about online-go.com today. Here's a page with a bunch go servers where you can play online against other people. http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoServers http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoServers I managed to squeeze in some 9x9 matches before the game started.
vinchuco 11y ago
Or one could use that time to learn how to program AlphaGo
svarrall 11y ago
Interested why you switched from 9x9 at 2 stones. I've been playing SmartGo recently (iOS) and figured I shouldn't switch to a 19x19 board until I could give it a good game without a handicap, but have stalled at 2 stones. My logic was if I can't play the 'right' moves at this stage, what hope do I have on a larger board?
- rejschaap 11y ago
  The problem with the 9x9 board is that it is just too small to allow you to really play go, it turns into a different kind of game. I think it is better to switch to a bigger board. It doesn't have to be the complete board, you can have some intermediate steps. The 9x9 board can be used to teach the absolute basics, but don't stay on it too long, you are probably not training yourself the right way. If your goal is to beat the computer on a 9x9 that's fine, but at some point it doesn't help you in playing the real game. My feeling is that point is reached real fast.
  - waqf 11y ago
    This is definitely true — 9×9 is too small for a real game. But 13×13 is a much better compromise and I would recommend that to players who have outgrown the 9×9 but still don't need to sit through a two-hour game before they learn from each mistake. (To be precise, the problem with 9×9 is that often after just a few moves the board is divided into a white half and a black half, and the rest of the game is a yose to decide whose half is larger. I'm sure someone can counterargue that if played expertly, 9×9 is a fascinating and highly skilled game; but in general it's going to lack a lot of the situations you can encounter in a full game of Go.)
- CocaKoala 11y ago
  It's useful to start out on a 9x9 board when you're still wrapping your head around how to figure out if a group is alive or dead and the most efficient ways to make life in the corner, etc. But being good on a 9x9 doesn't actually teach you a lot about how to play on a 19x19, because there's just not enough space to really have an opening and mid game develop. Learning how to give the computer a challenge on an even game on 9x9 won't make you better at 19x19; if you understand the rules, the very basic fundamentals of good shape, and you know how to fight in the corner, you've pretty much exhausted the usefulness of 9x9 and should move on.
gramakri 11y ago
I play the 13x13 a lot on KGS - https://www.gokgs.com/ https://www.gokgs.com/ . Lots of bots there to play with if you feel unskilled to play with a human. With larger boards, the bots seems to be very easy to beat.
- whitegrape 11y ago
  I wonder if that gives false confidence, beating the very easy bots.. I get totally crushed by gnugo but I know there are lots of other DDK players I could have a good game with. It'd be neat if go servers (like OGS) had preference flags where you can distinguish between "beginner friendly" and "noob friendly" so that weak and variable 18-23+kyu noob players won't feel like they're wasting the others' time and not feel pressured to resign immediately, or won't feel like they need to treat every non-blitz game seriously with reading and thinking about every move to avoid blunders. When I play in person I have the help of body language and chit-chat to decide whether I should keep on fighting other interesting areas of the board after a blunder or just give up and start another, a lot of people online don't even speak english (or at least very well).
amckenna 11y ago
For those on a Mac who want to install Gnugo using brew you have to use the command: brew install homebrew/games/gnu-go

i_don_t_know 11y ago

Which program do you use on the Mac? A long time ago I've used Goban[1] and I enjoyed it very much, but it's not available here in the App Store and apparently it doesn't fully work yet on El Capitan. (I don't know if it's not available right now because of the El Capitan problems or for some other reason.) What are some good go programs for the iPhone, both for playing and for learning/improving? [1] http://www.sente.ch/?p=1206&lang=en http://www.sente.ch/?p=1206&lang=en

tunesmith 11y ago
Goban is working for me on El Capitan, but I installed it before upgrading. There's also the older free version which might still be up on a webpage somewhere. But the better option is that I was able to get GoGui working - I did have to manually build/compile it myself but there is a way to build it so that it creates a real OS X Application. It's quite good, you can set any board position and then tell a computer program to respond from that point. http://gogui.sourceforge.net http://gogui.sourceforge.net EDIT: For the iPhone I like SmartGo Kifu for playing games. 'Tsumego Pro' and 'GoProblems' for puzzles (they're adaptive) and 'Go Books' by smartgo for ebooks.
- rimantas 11y ago
  I second the SmarGo Kifu
weavie 11y ago
He mentions GnuGo (https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/ https://www.gnu.org/software/gnugo/)
cooper12 11y ago
The old free version still works: http://www.sente.ch/software/goban3/ http://www.sente.ch/software/goban3/. You want the universal binary. The newer one isn't available in the app store for me either.
- i_don_t_know 11y ago
  Perfect. Thank you!

hudibras 11y ago

Thanks, that's very useful info.

dannysu 11y ago

I also just found out about online-go.com today. Here's a page with a bunch go servers where you can play online against other people. http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoServers http://senseis.xmp.net/?GoServers I managed to squeeze in some 9x9 matches before the game started.

vinchuco 11y ago

Or one could use that time to learn how to program AlphaGo

svarrall 11y ago

Interested why you switched from 9x9 at 2 stones. I've been playing SmartGo recently (iOS) and figured I shouldn't switch to a 19x19 board until I could give it a good game without a handicap, but have stalled at 2 stones. My logic was if I can't play the 'right' moves at this stage, what hope do I have on a larger board?

rejschaap 11y ago
The problem with the 9x9 board is that it is just too small to allow you to really play go, it turns into a different kind of game. I think it is better to switch to a bigger board. It doesn't have to be the complete board, you can have some intermediate steps. The 9x9 board can be used to teach the absolute basics, but don't stay on it too long, you are probably not training yourself the right way. If your goal is to beat the computer on a 9x9 that's fine, but at some point it doesn't help you in playing the real game. My feeling is that point is reached real fast.
- waqf 11y ago
  This is definitely true — 9×9 is too small for a real game. But 13×13 is a much better compromise and I would recommend that to players who have outgrown the 9×9 but still don't need to sit through a two-hour game before they learn from each mistake. (To be precise, the problem with 9×9 is that often after just a few moves the board is divided into a white half and a black half, and the rest of the game is a yose to decide whose half is larger. I'm sure someone can counterargue that if played expertly, 9×9 is a fascinating and highly skilled game; but in general it's going to lack a lot of the situations you can encounter in a full game of Go.)
CocaKoala 11y ago
It's useful to start out on a 9x9 board when you're still wrapping your head around how to figure out if a group is alive or dead and the most efficient ways to make life in the corner, etc. But being good on a 9x9 doesn't actually teach you a lot about how to play on a 19x19, because there's just not enough space to really have an opening and mid game develop. Learning how to give the computer a challenge on an even game on 9x9 won't make you better at 19x19; if you understand the rules, the very basic fundamentals of good shape, and you know how to fight in the corner, you've pretty much exhausted the usefulness of 9x9 and should move on.

gramakri 11y ago

I play the 13x13 a lot on KGS - https://www.gokgs.com/ https://www.gokgs.com/ . Lots of bots there to play with if you feel unskilled to play with a human. With larger boards, the bots seems to be very easy to beat.

whitegrape 11y ago
I wonder if that gives false confidence, beating the very easy bots.. I get totally crushed by gnugo but I know there are lots of other DDK players I could have a good game with. It'd be neat if go servers (like OGS) had preference flags where you can distinguish between "beginner friendly" and "noob friendly" so that weak and variable 18-23+kyu noob players won't feel like they're wasting the others' time and not feel pressured to resign immediately, or won't feel like they need to treat every non-blitz game seriously with reading and thinking about every move to avoid blunders. When I play in person I have the help of body language and chit-chat to decide whether I should keep on fighting other interesting areas of the board after a blunder or just give up and start another, a lot of people online don't even speak english (or at least very well).

amckenna 11y ago

For those on a Mac who want to install Gnugo using brew you have to use the command: brew install homebrew/games/gnu-go