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Not only the source, they want the signing keys as well: "For the reasons discussed above, the FBI cannot itself modify the software on Farook's iPhone without

by woodman 11y ago

Not only the source, they want the signing keys as well: "For the reasons discussed above, the FBI cannot itself modify the software on Farook's iPhone without access to the source code and Apple’s private electronic signature. The government did not seek to compel Apple to turn those over because it believed such a request would be less palatable to Apple. If Apple would prefer that course, however, that may provide an alternative that requires less labor by Apple programmers."

acqq 11y ago
If the government compels Apple to give FBI Apple's private keys, the spy state starts to officially exists. Currently, the best practices assume that such "keys to the kingdom" are, for example by Apple, only in some hardware devices, guarded, needing presence of more than one person to be used and that every signature made with them is permanently considered and logged. Even if FBI protects the keys, their use of the things they sign with them won't be able to be followed: these would be just plain easily copyable programs.
- forgotpwtomain 11y ago
  I think even if this were legally viable it would be an unmitigated economic disaster for the US tech industry.
  - stuaxo 11y ago
    I wonder, would it be possible for companies like Apple to completely up sticks and go somewhere else? Where would it be ?
    - rubyfan 11y ago
      There is no place to go, we all must fight the trend.
    - dest 11y ago
      I guess that if Apple moved abroad, the US would allow the importation of iPhones on its territory only if they can be breakable by the FBI. So either Apple exits the US market (not reasonable I think), or it has to fight the FBI, which it does now.
      - throwaway21816 11y ago
        >no more iphones Now if that isnt the easiest way to start a civil war, I dont know what is.
    - mpnordland 11y ago
      Apple should just fire the engines of their spacecraft headquarters and move into orbit. That should solve the problem of the FBI having authority to demand Apple's cooperation.
  - concernedctzn 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
- rubyfan 11y ago
  The spy state already officially exists. This is just theatrics. This can all be done behind closed doors without public involvement. The terms of this debate were chosen by the executive branch to vilify companies and individual supporters of encryption. What the government wants is to have this debate in the open and for a large enough portion of the public to accept the argument the government should be able to break into your phone with a warrant. The "with a warrant" clause is good cop - bad cop. The FBI is making the high road argument that all this is legit and above board and to fight terrorism. On the other hand the NSA is doing the dirty work and then oh by the way now the data they have collected is available to the FBI... You know to fight terrorism.
  - goldenkey 11y ago
    Seems rather silly to bet on a horse against Apple. Though Americans are largely uneducated and uninformed about signing keys and public private key encryption, in fact good ol Trump said some reactionary ignorant stuff about boycotting Apple..I wouldnt put it past Apple to include a pamphlet or some type of effort to educate people about how important private keys are. Trump and the durr people are all about us vs terrorists and villify Apple but most of it stems from ignorance. If the government wants to bet on that horse I hope it drags them though the mud for a lap or two
  - cuckcuckspruce 11y ago
    > The spy state already officially exists. [...] This is just theatrics. Indeed. It's more than likely that the FBI could just ask the NSA to break the phone, but if they do so then they have just admitted that the NSA can already do this and will have publicly exposed that capability. If the FBI is smart then the plan is likely to fight Apple to the end, lose, and then have terrorists, pedophiles, drug dealers, and members of the woodwind sections of orchestras move to the iPhone because "it's so secure the FBI can't get in!" all while letting the NSA break any iPhone they need and bootstrap the found evidence through parallel construction.
  - acqq 11y ago
    > The terms of this debate were chosen by the executive branch to vilify companies and individual supporters of encryption. I, and Apple too, claim that the terms were chosen to establish a precedent that would enable FBI to next time request from Apple to change their products all without going through the process of creating new laws. Because the current laws don't allow that demand, to "make such software" or "change hardware that way." The FBI cites the "All Writs Act" as what gives them that right (their current demand is already "write new software with a hole"), and that act absolutely doesn't contain anything more than "the courts can issue writs." (!) It sounds like a comedy but it's serious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act
euroclydon 11y ago
For newer iPhones: Is the software signing key used to sign the OS the Achilles Heel of the Secure Enclave? If so than does Apple resort to a un-updatable, pure-hardware implementation of the Enclave? Would that prevent the FBI from decrypting phone data even if they installed a modified OS?
- spacehome 11y ago
  It's possible to make a secure enclave that will accept updates while the phone is locked, but doing so would wipe the encryption keys. (In this scenario, so long as the secure enclave is unlocked beforehand, it could accept software updates without a wipe.) It's theorized that Apple considered this option but chose not to go this route because it's a little riskier and a software bug might permanently brick 100 million phones. They may reconsider now.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

by woodman 11y ago

acqq 11y ago

If the government compels Apple to give FBI Apple's private keys, the spy state starts to officially exists. Currently, the best practices assume that such "keys to the kingdom" are, for example by Apple, only in some hardware devices, guarded, needing presence of more than one person to be used and that every signature made with them is permanently considered and logged. Even if FBI protects the keys, their use of the things they sign with them won't be able to be followed: these would be just plain easily copyable programs.

forgotpwtomain 11y ago
I think even if this were legally viable it would be an unmitigated economic disaster for the US tech industry.
- stuaxo 11y ago
  I wonder, would it be possible for companies like Apple to completely up sticks and go somewhere else? Where would it be ?
  - rubyfan 11y ago
    There is no place to go, we all must fight the trend.
  - dest 11y ago
    I guess that if Apple moved abroad, the US would allow the importation of iPhones on its territory only if they can be breakable by the FBI. So either Apple exits the US market (not reasonable I think), or it has to fight the FBI, which it does now.
    - throwaway21816 11y ago
      >no more iphones Now if that isnt the easiest way to start a civil war, I dont know what is.
  - mpnordland 11y ago
    Apple should just fire the engines of their spacecraft headquarters and move into orbit. That should solve the problem of the FBI having authority to demand Apple's cooperation.
- concernedctzn 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
rubyfan 11y ago
The spy state already officially exists. This is just theatrics. This can all be done behind closed doors without public involvement. The terms of this debate were chosen by the executive branch to vilify companies and individual supporters of encryption. What the government wants is to have this debate in the open and for a large enough portion of the public to accept the argument the government should be able to break into your phone with a warrant. The "with a warrant" clause is good cop - bad cop. The FBI is making the high road argument that all this is legit and above board and to fight terrorism. On the other hand the NSA is doing the dirty work and then oh by the way now the data they have collected is available to the FBI... You know to fight terrorism.
- goldenkey 11y ago
  Seems rather silly to bet on a horse against Apple. Though Americans are largely uneducated and uninformed about signing keys and public private key encryption, in fact good ol Trump said some reactionary ignorant stuff about boycotting Apple..I wouldnt put it past Apple to include a pamphlet or some type of effort to educate people about how important private keys are. Trump and the durr people are all about us vs terrorists and villify Apple but most of it stems from ignorance. If the government wants to bet on that horse I hope it drags them though the mud for a lap or two
- cuckcuckspruce 11y ago
  > The spy state already officially exists. [...] This is just theatrics. Indeed. It's more than likely that the FBI could just ask the NSA to break the phone, but if they do so then they have just admitted that the NSA can already do this and will have publicly exposed that capability. If the FBI is smart then the plan is likely to fight Apple to the end, lose, and then have terrorists, pedophiles, drug dealers, and members of the woodwind sections of orchestras move to the iPhone because "it's so secure the FBI can't get in!" all while letting the NSA break any iPhone they need and bootstrap the found evidence through parallel construction.
- acqq 11y ago
  > The terms of this debate were chosen by the executive branch to vilify companies and individual supporters of encryption. I, and Apple too, claim that the terms were chosen to establish a precedent that would enable FBI to next time request from Apple to change their products all without going through the process of creating new laws. Because the current laws don't allow that demand, to "make such software" or "change hardware that way." The FBI cites the "All Writs Act" as what gives them that right (their current demand is already "write new software with a hole"), and that act absolutely doesn't contain anything more than "the courts can issue writs." (!) It sounds like a comedy but it's serious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Writs_Act

euroclydon 11y ago

For newer iPhones: Is the software signing key used to sign the OS the Achilles Heel of the Secure Enclave? If so than does Apple resort to a un-updatable, pure-hardware implementation of the Enclave? Would that prevent the FBI from decrypting phone data even if they installed a modified OS?

spacehome 11y ago
It's possible to make a secure enclave that will accept updates while the phone is locked, but doing so would wipe the encryption keys. (In this scenario, so long as the secure enclave is unlocked beforehand, it could accept software updates without a wipe.) It's theorized that Apple considered this option but chose not to go this route because it's a little riskier and a software bug might permanently brick 100 million phones. They may reconsider now.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]