7 ms·

Did not expect Godwin's law to be invoked so soon but I will give it a shot: >The Chinese city where you get to do that is called Dandong. I read somewhere it

by Laforet 11y ago

Did not expect Godwin's law to be invoked so soon but I will give it a shot: >The Chinese city where you get to do that is called Dandong. I read somewhere it was the most humane of Chinese cities, most having become a polluted nightmare these days... If he was being ironic I must have missed it. He seems to regard Dandong as the pinnacle of Chinese economic ascendancy when the city actually has a reputation for rampant violent crime thanks to smuggling and drug trade that occurs across the border. >Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission. Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week? >North Koreans supposedly believe that the entire world is in awe of their achievements. That's a lot to ask for a paddy field in the middle of nowhere. >The man has some genuine dignity. Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not. See, I am not interested in defending the NK regime. However the author/photographer shows a rather disappointing lack of understanding, respect or the slightest empathy to for his subjects. Hence his pictures, while technically sound, are no better than the millions of photos taken by Western tourists in North Korea.

mbaker 11y ago
Good rebuttal. Thanks for replying.
kbenson 11y ago
>> Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission. > Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week? I'm not sure it's meant that way. I don't see material superiority in it. Noting your appreciation for your ability to get into a car and drive where you want when confronted with strict control of movement doesn't necessarily imply "they should get a car", but that the you understand that ability in a new light, as a freedom that isn't available to everyone. I agree the captions sometimes come across as a little heavy handed, but also I think you're also being overly critical in some cases where it's not called for. Addendum: >> The man has some genuine dignity. > Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not. I was a bit unsure whether it was sarcasm initially as well, but decided it wasn't because a) The man looks dignified to me, especially in comparison to the train crossing guard in the prior slides, and b) I don't believe he uses sarcasm much in these slides, at least not the same type of sarcasm that would be exhibited here if this was meant sarcastically.
- Laforet 11y ago
  Thanks for the comments. Perhaps I was over-reacting, but I was more frustrated with other aspects of this post that I will spell out now at the risk of sounding like jealousy or argumentum ad hominem - This set of photos has gone viral and was presented "the latest ILLEGAL photographs smuggled out of the hermit kingdom" in many reputable media outlets. It even made to the first page of HN (disguised as a technical write-up). Yet there is nothing remarkable about it. Sure, tourists are not supposed to take photos of soldiers, of police, of anything not pretty during their train journey to Pyongyang, or in some accounts, badly composed shots of their national monuments. But such photos seem to never be in short supply, a simple search will reveal hundreds of blog posts and image galleries littered with such snaps with nobody expressing slightest fear of reprisal. Whatever accomplishments it may have, had been blown out of proportion. - The photographer is from Eastern Europe. My feeling from interaction with many Eastern Europeans of various background is that many of them will go out of their way to denounce their Cold War legacy, sometimes to the extent of borderline reactionary to my center-left mind. The multiple mentions of "individualism" in pretty unusual contexts as well as a general holier-than-thou attitude to countries presently aligned with Russia is eerily familiar. > I was a bit unsure whether it was sarcasm initially as well... This is a fair comment and I appreciate your thoughts. I actually stopped reading by that line then, but on my second attempt the last panel really stood out: >> Elegant men, beautiful women, walking in a simulated hurry, travelers without a reason (ours was the only train that day), all to impress us and so that the station doesn't look empty. Staged or not,there is no evidence either way. But if the observer has already decided that anything nice is only for show, then this will be the only thing he sees.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    > Staged or not,there is no evidence either way. But if the observer has already decided that anything nice is only for show, then this will be the only thing he sees. I agree there wasn't much evidence presented for a lot of the slides, but I took it more as a travelogue than an exposé. While I would have preferred more commentary and evidence for certain items, I'm not going to fault the photographer for describing each image and the context as they saw it. > This set of photos has gone viral and was presented "the latest ILLEGAL photographs smuggled out of the hermit kingdom" in many reputable media outlets. Is that the media, or was the author/photographer also pushing that agenda? It's very poorly titled here on HN as of now. The author mentions recovering an image once or twice from what I saw, but the title here suggests they are all rare and special images. I guess the question is, should we fault and be overly critical of the author because of how others pushed his work, or should be try to assess the author on his own merits and fault the media for their part in the circus (assuming the author was not pushing this view, which I know nothing about).
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
disposeofnick9 11y ago
North Korea is it's own, special form of evil which has developed nukes at the expense of nearly their entire GDP, most work is compelled, executed a general by antiaircraft gun, keeps people from escaping, still technically at war (ceasation of hositilities but still points AKs across the border) with the South and starves millions to death. Perhaps the mentioning of Godwin's law is itself groupthink dismissing legitimate "evil" suspects like Drumpf, Assad, Putin, Daesh, etc., that need more nuanced discussion, not shutting down. Shutting down is for tinfoil hat "micro-aggressions" and bikeshedding femto-issues, not ruthless regimes which genocidally-eradicate their own populace to ensure their own survival.
- kbenson 11y ago
  Godwin's law has come full circle to the point where it's invoked even where the comparisons make sense. The Nazi party of WWII and the atrocities committed by them are not entirely incomparable, even if they are often used hyperbolically. Reserving a special place for those actions and refusing comparison invites us to ignore when the comparisons are apt, and to see the connections where they are relevant. In some respects, North Korea is far worse than Nazism ever was (such as in its fanatacism), but in others it's nowhere near (such as the Holocaust, unless the situation there is far, far worse than anyone knows). > Drumpf Ha! Someone likes their John Oliver. :)
  - Chris2048 11y ago
    WW2 was a significant event in world history, it has relevance in many areas. It's also a great example of unique issues. It undoubtedly has relevance to many, varied subjects. as such, Godwins law is unproductive memetic junk.
  - cyphar 11y ago
    > > Drumpf > Ha! Someone likes their John Oliver. :) #MakeDonaldDrumpfAgain
- garrettgrimsley 11y ago
  >executed a general by antiaircraft gun Whatever your opinion of the DPRK may be there is no reason to regurgitate rather lazy and unimaginative propaganda such as this.
azernik 11y ago
Also with regards to the Chinese: > At night, the elderly Chinese dance in the streets in unison avoiding any displays of individuality. Really? That's what you have to say about a movement for public folk dancing that has defied government control [http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9308652e-d1f0-11e4-b66d-00144feab7de.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9308652e-d1f0-11e4-b66d-00144feab7...] and led to inter-generational tensions? [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/12/world/asia/china-dancing-square-grannies-shot.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/12/world/asia/china-dancing-s...] The confirmation bias in favor of "oh look at how repressed and uniform this culture is" is super paternalistic.

by Laforet 11y ago

mbaker 11y ago

Good rebuttal. Thanks for replying.

kbenson 11y ago

>> Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission. > Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week? I'm not sure it's meant that way. I don't see material superiority in it. Noting your appreciation for your ability to get into a car and drive where you want when confronted with strict control of movement doesn't necessarily imply "they should get a car", but that the you understand that ability in a new light, as a freedom that isn't available to everyone. I agree the captions sometimes come across as a little heavy handed, but also I think you're also being overly critical in some cases where it's not called for. Addendum: >> The man has some genuine dignity. > Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not. I was a bit unsure whether it was sarcasm initially as well, but decided it wasn't because a) The man looks dignified to me, especially in comparison to the train crossing guard in the prior slides, and b) I don't believe he uses sarcasm much in these slides, at least not the same type of sarcasm that would be exhibited here if this was meant sarcastically.

Laforet 11y ago
Thanks for the comments. Perhaps I was over-reacting, but I was more frustrated with other aspects of this post that I will spell out now at the risk of sounding like jealousy or argumentum ad hominem - This set of photos has gone viral and was presented "the latest ILLEGAL photographs smuggled out of the hermit kingdom" in many reputable media outlets. It even made to the first page of HN (disguised as a technical write-up). Yet there is nothing remarkable about it. Sure, tourists are not supposed to take photos of soldiers, of police, of anything not pretty during their train journey to Pyongyang, or in some accounts, badly composed shots of their national monuments. But such photos seem to never be in short supply, a simple search will reveal hundreds of blog posts and image galleries littered with such snaps with nobody expressing slightest fear of reprisal. Whatever accomplishments it may have, had been blown out of proportion. - The photographer is from Eastern Europe. My feeling from interaction with many Eastern Europeans of various background is that many of them will go out of their way to denounce their Cold War legacy, sometimes to the extent of borderline reactionary to my center-left mind. The multiple mentions of "individualism" in pretty unusual contexts as well as a general holier-than-thou attitude to countries presently aligned with Russia is eerily familiar. > I was a bit unsure whether it was sarcasm initially as well... This is a fair comment and I appreciate your thoughts. I actually stopped reading by that line then, but on my second attempt the last panel really stood out: >> Elegant men, beautiful women, walking in a simulated hurry, travelers without a reason (ours was the only train that day), all to impress us and so that the station doesn't look empty. Staged or not,there is no evidence either way. But if the observer has already decided that anything nice is only for show, then this will be the only thing he sees.
- kbenson 11y ago
  > Staged or not,there is no evidence either way. But if the observer has already decided that anything nice is only for show, then this will be the only thing he sees. I agree there wasn't much evidence presented for a lot of the slides, but I took it more as a travelogue than an exposé. While I would have preferred more commentary and evidence for certain items, I'm not going to fault the photographer for describing each image and the context as they saw it. > This set of photos has gone viral and was presented "the latest ILLEGAL photographs smuggled out of the hermit kingdom" in many reputable media outlets. Is that the media, or was the author/photographer also pushing that agenda? It's very poorly titled here on HN as of now. The author mentions recovering an image once or twice from what I saw, but the title here suggests they are all rare and special images. I guess the question is, should we fault and be overly critical of the author because of how others pushed his work, or should be try to assess the author on his own merits and fault the media for their part in the circus (assuming the author was not pushing this view, which I know nothing about).

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

disposeofnick9 11y ago

North Korea is it's own, special form of evil which has developed nukes at the expense of nearly their entire GDP, most work is compelled, executed a general by antiaircraft gun, keeps people from escaping, still technically at war (ceasation of hositilities but still points AKs across the border) with the South and starves millions to death. Perhaps the mentioning of Godwin's law is itself groupthink dismissing legitimate "evil" suspects like Drumpf, Assad, Putin, Daesh, etc., that need more nuanced discussion, not shutting down. Shutting down is for tinfoil hat "micro-aggressions" and bikeshedding femto-issues, not ruthless regimes which genocidally-eradicate their own populace to ensure their own survival.

kbenson 11y ago
Godwin's law has come full circle to the point where it's invoked even where the comparisons make sense. The Nazi party of WWII and the atrocities committed by them are not entirely incomparable, even if they are often used hyperbolically. Reserving a special place for those actions and refusing comparison invites us to ignore when the comparisons are apt, and to see the connections where they are relevant. In some respects, North Korea is far worse than Nazism ever was (such as in its fanatacism), but in others it's nowhere near (such as the Holocaust, unless the situation there is far, far worse than anyone knows). > Drumpf Ha! Someone likes their John Oliver. :)
- Chris2048 11y ago
  WW2 was a significant event in world history, it has relevance in many areas. It's also a great example of unique issues. It undoubtedly has relevance to many, varied subjects. as such, Godwins law is unproductive memetic junk.
- cyphar 11y ago
  > > Drumpf > Ha! Someone likes their John Oliver. :) #MakeDonaldDrumpfAgain
garrettgrimsley 11y ago
>executed a general by antiaircraft gun Whatever your opinion of the DPRK may be there is no reason to regurgitate rather lazy and unimaginative propaganda such as this.

azernik 11y ago

Also with regards to the Chinese: > At night, the elderly Chinese dance in the streets in unison avoiding any displays of individuality. Really? That's what you have to say about a movement for public folk dancing that has defied government control [http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9308652e-d1f0-11e4-b66d-00144feab7de.html http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/9308652e-d1f0-11e4-b66d-00144feab7...] and led to inter-generational tensions? [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/12/world/asia/china-dancing-square-grannies-shot.html http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/12/world/asia/china-dancing-s...] The confirmation bias in favor of "oh look at how repressed and uniform this culture is" is super paternalistic.