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The pictures are not bad, but the captions are incredibly cringe and condescending. Of course he would not bother to tell us how to disable the delete in the fi

by Laforet 11y ago

The pictures are not bad, but the captions are incredibly cringe and condescending. Of course he would not bother to tell us how to disable the delete in the firmware. Seriously, I mean, thousands of people have gone on these state-sponsored package tours in North Korea and we see the same set of trains, roads, hotels and attractions that they have really got boring. One photography project I do found interesting is the set below commissioned by Getty Images. The photographers they hired found a loophole in their visa conditions, managed enter NK from Russia and reached Pyongyang on trains rarely used by tourists. They were able to interact more with the locals since the border guards as well as people en route have not been "coached" to speak to foreginers and the whole thing came out feeling much more genuine than these tourist flicks. Selected pictures featured in Daily Mail: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3210256/Fascinating-glimpse-everyday-life-North-Korea-country-steps-brink-war-South.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3210256/Fascinating-... Photographer's Portfolio: http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/search/events/573232783?excludenudity=true&family=editorial&page=1&sort=best&phrase= http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/search/events/573232783?exclude... Photographer's written account of their travel (in Chinese), plus a few candid shots that Getty refused to buy: https://www.zhihu.com/question/19972643/answer/81163727 https://www.zhihu.com/question/19972643/answer/81163727

colinplamondon 11y ago
Condescending? This is an enslaved country with concentration many times larger than anything the Nazis cooked up. It's hard to condescend to one of the great evils in history.
- chimeracoder 11y ago
  > Condescending? This is an enslaved country with concentration many times larger than anything the Nazis cooked up. It's hard to condescend to one of the great evils in history. Well, for starters, comparing the people who live in North Korea to animals is one way. > It's quite incredible to witness Chinese or South Korean tourists interacting with North Korean fishermen - it reminded me of safaris is [sic] East Africa. You keep wondering, what are the North Koreans really thinking? And that's only on the fourth slide.
  - cperciva 11y ago
    I don't think he's comparing them to animals. I think he's saying that they're being treated like animals.
    - icebraining 11y ago
      Yeah, people from New Orleans said the same regarding the bus tours of the poorest zones (esp. Lower 9th), that it made their neighbourhood feel like a zoo.
- Laforet 11y ago
  Did not expect Godwin's law to be invoked so soon but I will give it a shot: >The Chinese city where you get to do that is called Dandong. I read somewhere it was the most humane of Chinese cities, most having become a polluted nightmare these days... If he was being ironic I must have missed it. He seems to regard Dandong as the pinnacle of Chinese economic ascendancy when the city actually has a reputation for rampant violent crime thanks to smuggling and drug trade that occurs across the border. >Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission. Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week? >North Koreans supposedly believe that the entire world is in awe of their achievements. That's a lot to ask for a paddy field in the middle of nowhere. >The man has some genuine dignity. Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not. See, I am not interested in defending the NK regime. However the author/photographer shows a rather disappointing lack of understanding, respect or the slightest empathy to for his subjects. Hence his pictures, while technically sound, are no better than the millions of photos taken by Western tourists in North Korea.
  - mbaker 11y ago
    Good rebuttal. Thanks for replying.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    >> Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission. > Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week? I'm not sure it's meant that way. I don't see material superiority in it. Noting your appreciation for your ability to get into a car and drive where you want when confronted with strict control of movement doesn't necessarily imply "they should get a car", but that the you understand that ability in a new light, as a freedom that isn't available to everyone. I agree the captions sometimes come across as a little heavy handed, but also I think you're also being overly critical in some cases where it's not called for. Addendum: >> The man has some genuine dignity. > Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not. I was a bit unsure whether it was sarcasm initially as well, but decided it wasn't because a) The man looks dignified to me, especially in comparison to the train crossing guard in the prior slides, and b) I don't believe he uses sarcasm much in these slides, at least not the same type of sarcasm that would be exhibited here if this was meant sarcastically.
- sdm 11y ago
  I agree with the OP, I found the captions extremely condescending. Especially the ones about China. The worst one for me was: > At night, the elderly Chinese dance in the streets in unison avoiding any displays of individuality. This comment would be the same as going to an aerobics class and saying "the gym rats move in unison avoiding any displays of individuality". These dancing grannies are not much difference, one of the main reasons they do this is for health and to stay active. Like going to the gym there is also a social component; health and social reasons are why the grannies dance. Actually each group does things differently and the moves are part of the tradition. It's as about anti-individualistic as going to an aerobic or yoga class. Really, it starts going bad at the opening: > The Koreans are one nation, but not unlike Germany, the country was divided between the USSR and the US following World War 2. This is just factually incorrect. A more apt comparison would be Germany and Austria. Yes they are both ethnically Korean, but Korean has only been unified for about half it's approximately 1500 year history and when it was unified it was often unified in a similar feudal way that Germany and Austria where "unified" in the HRE. The reality is Korea has always been the primary location of proxy wars between China and Japan. The only unified points was when one of China or Japan was strong enough to dominate the whole peninsula. Even the North/South terms are very Western in origin with most surrounding Asian countries having completely different names for the two countries that are as related as "Germany" and "Austria". On the ground within South Korea, especially towards the south of the country, there just isn't a sense that unification should even be attempted or that the two countries have much in common. Finally, one of the main reasons China is willing to take a stronger hand against North Korea and support sanctions is because South Korea has been moving increasingly from Japanese/American sphere to the Chinese sphere of influence. Especially under the conservative Park. This more than anything else is likely to spell doom for North Korea.
  - SilasX 11y ago
    > Even the North/South terms are very Western in origin with most surrounding Asian countries having completely different names for the two countries that are as related as "Germany" and "Austria". Interestingly, the name "Austria" comes from "eastern realm": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Austria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Austria
  - 11y ago
mc32 11y ago
Wait, you're comparing a commissioned body of work with those of tourists and complain the tourists don't take the same kind of pictures? Is that like saying tourists who come to America and take pictures don't take the same kinds of pictures Robert Frank took? Or that tourists to Russia don't measure up to Simon Roberts's photographs? In fact they have a nice vernacular quality to them.
rorykoehler 11y ago
I also found the captions off putting and unnecessary, so much so that I felt compelled to tell him as much on his facebook page. Having spent a considerable amount of time in eastern Europe (where the photographer is from), it has been my observation that, at least anecdotally, considerably more people from these regions (as opposed to more mature democracies) are emotionally unprepared to look at political issues from a neutral perspective. His comments are heavy with his own experiences and prejudices. It's an understandable reaction to growing up in a repressive regime however it seems highly biased to more neutral observers.
- Laforet 11y ago
  Thank you, I was trying to say something along similar lines in another comment but you summed it up more eloquently.
- novaleaf 11y ago
  agreed. And actually for me, the pictures are nearly indistinguishable from what I've seen in India and Thailand. nothing shocking about minimalist infrastructure in a 3rd world country unless you have never been out of the 1st world.
- tangled_zans 11y ago
  That's an interesting comment for me to read as someone born in Eastern Europe. I can sort-of see what you mean from my own experiences, but I'm not entirely sure if I'm guilty of that as well. What would it mean for you to "look at political issues from a neutral perspective"?
  - rorykoehler 11y ago
    To me at least it means to understand the geopolitical sphere from first principles. To achieve this I think it is necessary to have studied and understood the history of and the art form of propaganda and to be able to analyse media from this perspective, regardless of it's source and regardless of whether or not it confirms your world view. I would also like to add that it requires a strong aptitude for multistep thinking.
hellofunk 11y ago
I definitely disagree with your interpretation of the photographer's comments. I found them rather interesting and not "cringe". His page is not a tech blog with how-tos on how to use your camera, so if that is what you were expecting, I can understand why you are disappointed. But actually, his page is for showing photographs and sharing information about the country, much of it was rather insightful while brief. The motivated spectator can then google details about your camera's firmware for the next time you travel to North Korea yourself.
- Laforet 11y ago
  > much of it was rather insightful while brief Much of it was misinformed or plain wrong. The particulars has been extensively discussed in this thread. > The motivated spectator can then google details about your camera's firmware for the next time you travel to North Korea yourself. The photographer appears to use Nikon SLRs which I am familiar with (I have a Df and has been using Nikon for the past decade). A handful of old models had homebrew firmware patches but it was mostly for shooting video[0]. There has been no new releases since. Can somebody point me where to look? Googling turned up nothing like what's been described in the linked gallery. [0]http://www.diyphotography.net/hacked-nikon-firmware-allows-manual-control-d5100-while-liveview/ http://www.diyphotography.net/hacked-nikon-firmware-allows-m...
Perixoog 11y ago
>we see the same set of trains, roads, hotels and attractions that they have really got boring I'd love to see pictures from the acted scenes (subway) over a series of days, weeks, years. The "travellers" who are leaving every day. Like The Truman Show.
imgabe 11y ago
Describing anything as cringe is itself becoming cringe.
- Laforet 11y ago
  Ghastly would have been a wiser choice of word, but the meaning remains the same.
Shivetya 11y ago
Did we see the same page? I am trying to find the offensive wording. If being blunt if offensive then as a society we are failing. Just like some of the old Warsaw pact North Korea is surreal at times. The extent to which they go to control information and what is seen or not seen is not much different than the Soviet Union and Warsaw pact. I have seen other picture galleries and the stark truth is how empty it all looks, abandoned even. It is the "post nuclear war people coming back and surviving look" that many authors write.
aws_ls 11y ago
I know this comment has been criticized a lot, and rightly so. As the last picture of train station with "elegant men and beautiful women" acting to look the station busy, is by itself so much of a story, as to make me want more of it. (And I hate that this is the top comment. As its almost off topic, and has utterly non interesting commentary, in contrast to the pictures which offer us so much - again I hark back to the last telling photograph - I will surely be tuned for more photos from this travelogue.)

by Laforet 11y ago

colinplamondon 11y ago

Condescending? This is an enslaved country with concentration many times larger than anything the Nazis cooked up. It's hard to condescend to one of the great evils in history.

chimeracoder 11y ago
> Condescending? This is an enslaved country with concentration many times larger than anything the Nazis cooked up. It's hard to condescend to one of the great evils in history. Well, for starters, comparing the people who live in North Korea to animals is one way. > It's quite incredible to witness Chinese or South Korean tourists interacting with North Korean fishermen - it reminded me of safaris is [sic] East Africa. You keep wondering, what are the North Koreans really thinking? And that's only on the fourth slide.
- cperciva 11y ago
  I don't think he's comparing them to animals. I think he's saying that they're being treated like animals.
  - icebraining 11y ago
    Yeah, people from New Orleans said the same regarding the bus tours of the poorest zones (esp. Lower 9th), that it made their neighbourhood feel like a zoo.
Laforet 11y ago
Did not expect Godwin's law to be invoked so soon but I will give it a shot: >The Chinese city where you get to do that is called Dandong. I read somewhere it was the most humane of Chinese cities, most having become a polluted nightmare these days... If he was being ironic I must have missed it. He seems to regard Dandong as the pinnacle of Chinese economic ascendancy when the city actually has a reputation for rampant violent crime thanks to smuggling and drug trade that occurs across the border. >Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission. Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week? >North Koreans supposedly believe that the entire world is in awe of their achievements. That's a lot to ask for a paddy field in the middle of nowhere. >The man has some genuine dignity. Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not. See, I am not interested in defending the NK regime. However the author/photographer shows a rather disappointing lack of understanding, respect or the slightest empathy to for his subjects. Hence his pictures, while technically sound, are no better than the millions of photos taken by Western tourists in North Korea.
- mbaker 11y ago
  Good rebuttal. Thanks for replying.
- kbenson 11y ago
  >> Pluralism and individualism are regarded as the greatest enemy. I understood the significance of being able to drive a car anywhere you want, when you please, where you please - as our guide told us in North Korea you only travel big distances by bus or train, when you get permission. > Internal visa is an evil system, but this paragraphs just reeks of material and moral superiority. Hey why don't you just become a rugged individual like me and save up for a car when there is only three scheduled trains every week? I'm not sure it's meant that way. I don't see material superiority in it. Noting your appreciation for your ability to get into a car and drive where you want when confronted with strict control of movement doesn't necessarily imply "they should get a car", but that the you understand that ability in a new light, as a freedom that isn't available to everyone. I agree the captions sometimes come across as a little heavy handed, but also I think you're also being overly critical in some cases where it's not called for. Addendum: >> The man has some genuine dignity. > Again, really hard to figure out whether it is sarcasm or not. I was a bit unsure whether it was sarcasm initially as well, but decided it wasn't because a) The man looks dignified to me, especially in comparison to the train crossing guard in the prior slides, and b) I don't believe he uses sarcasm much in these slides, at least not the same type of sarcasm that would be exhibited here if this was meant sarcastically.
sdm 11y ago
I agree with the OP, I found the captions extremely condescending. Especially the ones about China. The worst one for me was: > At night, the elderly Chinese dance in the streets in unison avoiding any displays of individuality. This comment would be the same as going to an aerobics class and saying "the gym rats move in unison avoiding any displays of individuality". These dancing grannies are not much difference, one of the main reasons they do this is for health and to stay active. Like going to the gym there is also a social component; health and social reasons are why the grannies dance. Actually each group does things differently and the moves are part of the tradition. It's as about anti-individualistic as going to an aerobic or yoga class. Really, it starts going bad at the opening: > The Koreans are one nation, but not unlike Germany, the country was divided between the USSR and the US following World War 2. This is just factually incorrect. A more apt comparison would be Germany and Austria. Yes they are both ethnically Korean, but Korean has only been unified for about half it's approximately 1500 year history and when it was unified it was often unified in a similar feudal way that Germany and Austria where "unified" in the HRE. The reality is Korea has always been the primary location of proxy wars between China and Japan. The only unified points was when one of China or Japan was strong enough to dominate the whole peninsula. Even the North/South terms are very Western in origin with most surrounding Asian countries having completely different names for the two countries that are as related as "Germany" and "Austria". On the ground within South Korea, especially towards the south of the country, there just isn't a sense that unification should even be attempted or that the two countries have much in common. Finally, one of the main reasons China is willing to take a stronger hand against North Korea and support sanctions is because South Korea has been moving increasingly from Japanese/American sphere to the Chinese sphere of influence. Especially under the conservative Park. This more than anything else is likely to spell doom for North Korea.
- SilasX 11y ago
  > Even the North/South terms are very Western in origin with most surrounding Asian countries having completely different names for the two countries that are as related as "Germany" and "Austria". Interestingly, the name "Austria" comes from "eastern realm": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Austria https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Austria
- 11y ago

mc32 11y ago

Wait, you're comparing a commissioned body of work with those of tourists and complain the tourists don't take the same kind of pictures? Is that like saying tourists who come to America and take pictures don't take the same kinds of pictures Robert Frank took? Or that tourists to Russia don't measure up to Simon Roberts's photographs? In fact they have a nice vernacular quality to them.

rorykoehler 11y ago

I also found the captions off putting and unnecessary, so much so that I felt compelled to tell him as much on his facebook page. Having spent a considerable amount of time in eastern Europe (where the photographer is from), it has been my observation that, at least anecdotally, considerably more people from these regions (as opposed to more mature democracies) are emotionally unprepared to look at political issues from a neutral perspective. His comments are heavy with his own experiences and prejudices. It's an understandable reaction to growing up in a repressive regime however it seems highly biased to more neutral observers.

Laforet 11y ago
Thank you, I was trying to say something along similar lines in another comment but you summed it up more eloquently.
novaleaf 11y ago
agreed. And actually for me, the pictures are nearly indistinguishable from what I've seen in India and Thailand. nothing shocking about minimalist infrastructure in a 3rd world country unless you have never been out of the 1st world.
tangled_zans 11y ago
That's an interesting comment for me to read as someone born in Eastern Europe. I can sort-of see what you mean from my own experiences, but I'm not entirely sure if I'm guilty of that as well. What would it mean for you to "look at political issues from a neutral perspective"?
- rorykoehler 11y ago
  To me at least it means to understand the geopolitical sphere from first principles. To achieve this I think it is necessary to have studied and understood the history of and the art form of propaganda and to be able to analyse media from this perspective, regardless of it's source and regardless of whether or not it confirms your world view. I would also like to add that it requires a strong aptitude for multistep thinking.

hellofunk 11y ago

I definitely disagree with your interpretation of the photographer's comments. I found them rather interesting and not "cringe". His page is not a tech blog with how-tos on how to use your camera, so if that is what you were expecting, I can understand why you are disappointed. But actually, his page is for showing photographs and sharing information about the country, much of it was rather insightful while brief. The motivated spectator can then google details about your camera's firmware for the next time you travel to North Korea yourself.

Laforet 11y ago
> much of it was rather insightful while brief Much of it was misinformed or plain wrong. The particulars has been extensively discussed in this thread. > The motivated spectator can then google details about your camera's firmware for the next time you travel to North Korea yourself. The photographer appears to use Nikon SLRs which I am familiar with (I have a Df and has been using Nikon for the past decade). A handful of old models had homebrew firmware patches but it was mostly for shooting video[0]. There has been no new releases since. Can somebody point me where to look? Googling turned up nothing like what's been described in the linked gallery. [0]http://www.diyphotography.net/hacked-nikon-firmware-allows-manual-control-d5100-while-liveview/ http://www.diyphotography.net/hacked-nikon-firmware-allows-m...

Perixoog 11y ago

>we see the same set of trains, roads, hotels and attractions that they have really got boring I'd love to see pictures from the acted scenes (subway) over a series of days, weeks, years. The "travellers" who are leaving every day. Like The Truman Show.

imgabe 11y ago

Describing anything as cringe is itself becoming cringe.

Laforet 11y ago
Ghastly would have been a wiser choice of word, but the meaning remains the same.

Shivetya 11y ago

Did we see the same page? I am trying to find the offensive wording. If being blunt if offensive then as a society we are failing. Just like some of the old Warsaw pact North Korea is surreal at times. The extent to which they go to control information and what is seen or not seen is not much different than the Soviet Union and Warsaw pact. I have seen other picture galleries and the stark truth is how empty it all looks, abandoned even. It is the "post nuclear war people coming back and surviving look" that many authors write.

aws_ls 11y ago

I know this comment has been criticized a lot, and rightly so. As the last picture of train station with "elegant men and beautiful women" acting to look the station busy, is by itself so much of a story, as to make me want more of it. (And I hate that this is the top comment. As its almost off topic, and has utterly non interesting commentary, in contrast to the pictures which offer us so much - again I hark back to the last telling photograph - I will surely be tuned for more photos from this travelogue.)