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Since the victories of AlphaGO, we've learnt a lot about Starcraft being the new step in AI game research. Maybe it would be better to focus the efforts on an

Since the victories of AlphaGO, we've learnt a lot about Starcraft being the new step in AI game research. Maybe it would be better to focus the efforts on an opensource RTS such as 0ad, which leads to less legal problems and less hacky interfaces (for Starcraft 1, by writing in the memory of the game).

jdowner 11y ago
One direction I would like to see more focus on is AI providing a useful explanation of the decisions that are taken. AlphaGo made quite a few non-conventional moves. They turned out to be good moves. What I would find really interesting is if an AI like AlphaGo can not only excel at playing games (solving problems) but also be used as a tool to gain understanding. Perhaps, Lee Sedol will become even stronger now because his experience with AlphaGo. Perhaps, humans will be able to learn to view the game in a slightly different way that closes the gap between where we are and where AlphaGo appears to be? Maybe humans will once again regain supremacy over AlphaGo? I think that would be a much more interesting outcome than moving on to another problem space.
- lsaferite 11y ago
  Knowing almost nothing about neural nets, is it possible for a NN based AI to explain it's decisions in some manner that we would understand?
  - fennecfoxen 11y ago
    What you can do is see which neurons were activated by a certain event, then figure out what other situations they are activated by and the patterns that they match. That's won't get you a coherent explanation straight away, especially for a very large network, but it's a start.
- stouset 11y ago
  To a large degree, I don't think this is possible. As humans, we want an intuitive explanation. For instance with chess, because it weakens certain squares or allows a particular combination resulting in a pawn break. Unfortunately, these notions arise from our human attempt to understand a complicated game by reasoning through abstractions over the game. Things like pawn structure, control over light and dark squares, and pressure on pinned pieces aren't fundamental components of chess — they're just patterns that help us understand and reason about complicated board positions. An AI doesn't need or use these abstractions. At the end of the day, all of them can, will, and should be ignored for the sake of simply achieving a superior position on the board. And it's very likely in my mind that moves at this deep a level can't be suggested in terms of a more useful abstraction than, "because it's better than all the other moves".
- eru 11y ago
  I bet humans will be able to gain supremacy over the AlphaGo that Lee Sedol has (and is) playing. However, AlphaGo is still training and advancing. I am not sure people will be able to keep up with that moving target.
- otabdeveloper1 11y ago
  > What I would find really interesting is if an AI like AlphaGo can not only excel at playing games (solving problems) but also be used as a tool to gain understanding. No, it cannot. It's generally thought that the only salient difference between 'machine learning' and 'statistics' is that 'statistics' attempts to find explanations, while 'machine learning' only attempts to find heuristics that give results. Don't anthopomorphise AI. It's not artificial life, it's only probability theory plus lots of CPU power.
jonbaer 11y ago
Preview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOHEU7Ykyg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOHEU7Ykyg
mindcrime 11y ago
Yeah, it would definitely be nice if this kind of research focused on open source games. I've been wanting to do something like this with 0ad myself, so I find this very exciting!
Cacti 11y ago
Considering the work involved in general, the interface is sort of irrelevant. Plus, there's no way to tell if your AI is any good if you don't have anyone to play against, and if you're doing that, you want to play against the best, which means you need a wildly popular game with a professional drive to it. Starcraft is a perfect fit.
andreyk 11y ago
MIT actually has an annual RTS-AI game competition which I believe is open source: https://www.battlecode.org/ https://www.battlecode.org/ Google also had the ANT AI challenge which was neat: http://ants.aichallenge.org/ http://ants.aichallenge.org/

jdowner 11y ago

One direction I would like to see more focus on is AI providing a useful explanation of the decisions that are taken. AlphaGo made quite a few non-conventional moves. They turned out to be good moves. What I would find really interesting is if an AI like AlphaGo can not only excel at playing games (solving problems) but also be used as a tool to gain understanding. Perhaps, Lee Sedol will become even stronger now because his experience with AlphaGo. Perhaps, humans will be able to learn to view the game in a slightly different way that closes the gap between where we are and where AlphaGo appears to be? Maybe humans will once again regain supremacy over AlphaGo? I think that would be a much more interesting outcome than moving on to another problem space.

lsaferite 11y ago
Knowing almost nothing about neural nets, is it possible for a NN based AI to explain it's decisions in some manner that we would understand?
- fennecfoxen 11y ago
  What you can do is see which neurons were activated by a certain event, then figure out what other situations they are activated by and the patterns that they match. That's won't get you a coherent explanation straight away, especially for a very large network, but it's a start.
stouset 11y ago
To a large degree, I don't think this is possible. As humans, we want an intuitive explanation. For instance with chess, because it weakens certain squares or allows a particular combination resulting in a pawn break. Unfortunately, these notions arise from our human attempt to understand a complicated game by reasoning through abstractions over the game. Things like pawn structure, control over light and dark squares, and pressure on pinned pieces aren't fundamental components of chess — they're just patterns that help us understand and reason about complicated board positions. An AI doesn't need or use these abstractions. At the end of the day, all of them can, will, and should be ignored for the sake of simply achieving a superior position on the board. And it's very likely in my mind that moves at this deep a level can't be suggested in terms of a more useful abstraction than, "because it's better than all the other moves".
eru 11y ago
I bet humans will be able to gain supremacy over the AlphaGo that Lee Sedol has (and is) playing. However, AlphaGo is still training and advancing. I am not sure people will be able to keep up with that moving target.
otabdeveloper1 11y ago
> What I would find really interesting is if an AI like AlphaGo can not only excel at playing games (solving problems) but also be used as a tool to gain understanding. No, it cannot. It's generally thought that the only salient difference between 'machine learning' and 'statistics' is that 'statistics' attempts to find explanations, while 'machine learning' only attempts to find heuristics that give results. Don't anthopomorphise AI. It's not artificial life, it's only probability theory plus lots of CPU power.

jonbaer 11y ago

Preview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOHEU7Ykyg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeOHEU7Ykyg

mindcrime 11y ago

Yeah, it would definitely be nice if this kind of research focused on open source games. I've been wanting to do something like this with 0ad myself, so I find this very exciting!

Cacti 11y ago

Considering the work involved in general, the interface is sort of irrelevant. Plus, there's no way to tell if your AI is any good if you don't have anyone to play against, and if you're doing that, you want to play against the best, which means you need a wildly popular game with a professional drive to it. Starcraft is a perfect fit.

andreyk 11y ago

MIT actually has an annual RTS-AI game competition which I believe is open source: https://www.battlecode.org/ https://www.battlecode.org/ Google also had the ANT AI challenge which was neat: http://ants.aichallenge.org/ http://ants.aichallenge.org/