5 ms·

My lawyer lives in London. He's from silicon valley and has helped hundreds of startups, including some of the biggest. His observation about London is that th

My lawyer lives in London. He's from silicon valley and has helped hundreds of startups, including some of the biggest. His observation about London is that the cost of living is simply so high, that it is impossible to have a real startup culture here.

k-mcgrady 11y ago
Really? It was my impressions that the cost of living in SF in much, much higher. Cost of living in London is high but I don't find it too bad and I know lots of people on much lower salaries than me who don't find it too difficult either. Of course this is assuming you're young/no dependents etc. but that's most startup founders.
- andyjohnson0 11y ago
  "Of course this is assuming you're young/no dependents etc. but that's most startup founders." This is far from true. "In fact, research shows that the median age of U.S.-born tech company founders is 39, and there are twice as many entrepreneurs older than 50 than there are younger that age 25." [1] [1] http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/242851 http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/242851
  - k-mcgrady 11y ago
    Interesting, thanks for the correction. I had a feeling that was going to happen lol
  - josephmx 11y ago
    I wonder if that's because older founders (assuming age = more experienced) are more likely to succeed or last longer than a very young (<25) founder, so they don't go back to normal jobs for longer if at all.
jordinl 11y ago
I've lived in London and SF. And I would say Silicon Valley is as expensive, if not more, than London
dwightgunning 11y ago
> the cost of living is simply so high, that it is impossible to have a real startup culture [in London]. That's an odd way to phrase it. Cost of living is only ever going to be one in many factors that contribute to the level of startup culture/community in a given city. It's also worth considering how the cost of living and the maturity of the startup ecosystems in SF and London have changed over time. I dare say SF would have been comparatively cheaper back in the days when the startup ecosystem was forming than London is today. No doubt modern-day London faces additional challenges because it's already an expensive city and parts of the ecosystem aren't as mature.
lmm 11y ago
The very centre is too expensive - the reason Shoreditch is a centre of startups and artists and the like is that twenty years ago it was where all the crime was. Now the creeping gentrification is happening (as it does everywhere) and some of the startups are moving out to Hoxton or further. Fortunately (and in contrast to SF on its peninsula) there is land all around, so when an area gets too expensive it just pushes people slightly further out.
- UVB-76 11y ago
  Shoreditch and Hoxton lost the battle to gentrification a long time ago. None of the creatives who reinvigorated the area can afford to live there anymore. Also, London does not have uncontrolled urban sprawl. It is constrained by the Green Belt, which was designed precisely to prevent sprawl. This is one of many reasons property prices are naturally high.
kami8845 11y ago
You can live on £1000 per month. Of course it's not as much fun as spending more money (especially since the people you see on the street seem lavish in their spending). It's very easy to get accustomed to an expensive lifestyle. In SF, is it possible to rent a single room 15 minutes walk from where all the tech companies are located for $800 / month? Because in London you can.
- Scirra_Tom 11y ago
  Pretty hard to live off £1k a month in London. Rent is going to be ~50% of that minimum, then you have council tax + bills. Doesn't leave much at all for transport/food and whatever else might come up.
  - Symbiote 11y ago
    £1k is a bit less than the recommended monthly cost for students in London of around £1.1-1.2k, depending who you ask. That presumably assumes sharing a flat/house with others, but also probably assumes living relatively close to the university. The "London Living Wage" works out to about £1200 per month, after tax. There are people earning less than this in London. If the startup doesn't need to be in London they could cut costs significantly by being further out of London in the suburbs, or in a satellite town, and taking the train in when necessary. But this can put off potential employees. Maybe it could work at the beginning.
  - kami8845 11y ago
    I was offered a single room (small but livable) 5 minutes walk off Brick Lane for £535 all incl. If you work in Shoreditch you can easily walk to work, so no transport costs. That leaves £500 for food & other spend. If you cook for yourself this is very plausible. Of course finding a room like that and getting it over the other dozens of people who want it is not that easy, but that's a system you can hack too.
- pjc50 11y ago
  Hmm. Almost exactly $900, with a quick bit of searching. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-53571725.html http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-5357172... I'm curious as to how you can assess lavishness of spending of people walking by on the street; presumably you're very good at identifying branded fashion?

k-mcgrady 11y ago

Really? It was my impressions that the cost of living in SF in much, much higher. Cost of living in London is high but I don't find it too bad and I know lots of people on much lower salaries than me who don't find it too difficult either. Of course this is assuming you're young/no dependents etc. but that's most startup founders.

andyjohnson0 11y ago
"Of course this is assuming you're young/no dependents etc. but that's most startup founders." This is far from true. "In fact, research shows that the median age of U.S.-born tech company founders is 39, and there are twice as many entrepreneurs older than 50 than there are younger that age 25." [1] [1] http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/242851 http://www.entrepreneur.com/article/242851
- k-mcgrady 11y ago
  Interesting, thanks for the correction. I had a feeling that was going to happen lol
- josephmx 11y ago
  I wonder if that's because older founders (assuming age = more experienced) are more likely to succeed or last longer than a very young (<25) founder, so they don't go back to normal jobs for longer if at all.

jordinl 11y ago

I've lived in London and SF. And I would say Silicon Valley is as expensive, if not more, than London

dwightgunning 11y ago

> the cost of living is simply so high, that it is impossible to have a real startup culture [in London]. That's an odd way to phrase it. Cost of living is only ever going to be one in many factors that contribute to the level of startup culture/community in a given city. It's also worth considering how the cost of living and the maturity of the startup ecosystems in SF and London have changed over time. I dare say SF would have been comparatively cheaper back in the days when the startup ecosystem was forming than London is today. No doubt modern-day London faces additional challenges because it's already an expensive city and parts of the ecosystem aren't as mature.

lmm 11y ago

The very centre is too expensive - the reason Shoreditch is a centre of startups and artists and the like is that twenty years ago it was where all the crime was. Now the creeping gentrification is happening (as it does everywhere) and some of the startups are moving out to Hoxton or further. Fortunately (and in contrast to SF on its peninsula) there is land all around, so when an area gets too expensive it just pushes people slightly further out.

UVB-76 11y ago
Shoreditch and Hoxton lost the battle to gentrification a long time ago. None of the creatives who reinvigorated the area can afford to live there anymore. Also, London does not have uncontrolled urban sprawl. It is constrained by the Green Belt, which was designed precisely to prevent sprawl. This is one of many reasons property prices are naturally high.

kami8845 11y ago

You can live on £1000 per month. Of course it's not as much fun as spending more money (especially since the people you see on the street seem lavish in their spending). It's very easy to get accustomed to an expensive lifestyle. In SF, is it possible to rent a single room 15 minutes walk from where all the tech companies are located for $800 / month? Because in London you can.

Scirra_Tom 11y ago
Pretty hard to live off £1k a month in London. Rent is going to be ~50% of that minimum, then you have council tax + bills. Doesn't leave much at all for transport/food and whatever else might come up.
- Symbiote 11y ago
  £1k is a bit less than the recommended monthly cost for students in London of around £1.1-1.2k, depending who you ask. That presumably assumes sharing a flat/house with others, but also probably assumes living relatively close to the university. The "London Living Wage" works out to about £1200 per month, after tax. There are people earning less than this in London. If the startup doesn't need to be in London they could cut costs significantly by being further out of London in the suburbs, or in a satellite town, and taking the train in when necessary. But this can put off potential employees. Maybe it could work at the beginning.
- kami8845 11y ago
  I was offered a single room (small but livable) 5 minutes walk off Brick Lane for £535 all incl. If you work in Shoreditch you can easily walk to work, so no transport costs. That leaves £500 for food & other spend. If you cook for yourself this is very plausible. Of course finding a room like that and getting it over the other dozens of people who want it is not that easy, but that's a system you can hack too.
pjc50 11y ago
Hmm. Almost exactly $900, with a quick bit of searching. http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-53571725.html http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-5357172... I'm curious as to how you can assess lavishness of spending of people walking by on the street; presumably you're very good at identifying branded fashion?