6 ms·

This is very belittling to the amazing amount of research that goes into ADHD. Many studies have been done with regard to treatment and diagnosis, and at this

by rtpg 11y ago

This is very belittling to the amazing amount of research that goes into ADHD. Many studies have been done with regard to treatment and diagnosis, and at this point we are better able to treat ADHD than we are able to treat depression There might be a bit of an over-treatment culture (I'm not sure, though), but the science is extremely well developed and tested

jonesb6 11y ago
Wait when did we get good at treating depression?
- rtpg 11y ago
  This is off of the top of my head, but something like 50% of people treated for depression show positive response for the treatment, and 20% achieve "full recovery" (still on meds but the symptoms linked to depression are basically gone while on meds). Meaning these people can move on with their lives not having to deal with this. Medicated treatment for ADHD has hit even higher numbers. Something like 70% of patients respond positively to medication (sometimes takes a while to get the right medication though), and 45% achieve full recovery (that is to say, ADHD stops being an issue for them if they're on their meds). I mentioned this because conventional wisdom is something like: "Yes, depression as a chemical imbalance is a thing that exists, and you can kind of do something with it through treatment." But a lot of people are also "ADHD might not even be a real thing and is a result of helicopter parenting and lazy kids". But the science is much further ahead on understanding ADHD and treating it on ADHD than depression.
  - tomhoward 11y ago
    I consider it one of the great paradoxes of modern thought that the loudest proponents of evolutionary theory are often the loudest proponents/defenders of pharmaceutical-based treatment for mental illness. So the logic is: - evolution is this amazingly powerful process that has resulted in the development of a vast diversity of astonishingly sophisticated and beautiful species of plants and animals, with the most advanced observed to exist in the known universe being the human inhabitants of planet Earth. However... - a significant portion of this most beautifully evolved and advanced species are unable to function successfully without the use of medication to alter the naturally evolved chemical activity of their brain. Personally I believe the first statement too much to be able to accept the second. That is: I believe that conditions like depression and ADHD have evolved for a reason, and to suppress them with chemicals rather than understanding the reasons for their existence and responding to those reasons is to devolve or suspend evolution. Where the paradox becomes so profound and damaging is that the people who go to serious effort to understand these conditions and to develop and advocate non-pharmaceutical methods of treatment, are often condemned and mocked as un-scientific. But mercifully the tides are changing, and I can see a time in the future, not all that far off, in which we look back on the practice of dealing with non-compliant kids by feeding them amphetamines as one to be viewed with great shame.
    - OwlsParliament 11y ago
      Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments? Stopping vaccinations, because not getting smallpox is interfering with evolution? Evolution doesn't happen for a reason. The whole point of evolution is that our biology and the way our brains work is bafflingly random at times. Depression is a crippling mental illness, it doesn't happen for a reason.
      - tomhoward 11y ago
        Hi there. I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but this isn't a very charitable or productive response, and it contains at least 3 argumentative fallacies. Responding to your points... Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments? No and that's a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say we shouldn't treat mental illness. I said we can do better than giving amphetamines to children as a way of dealing with aberrant behavior, and that perhaps the key to finding the best treatment is likely to be found by understanding (not denying) its evolutionary origins. I believe this to be true as I've seen this approach work on myself and others. Stopping vaccinations, because not getting smallpox is interfering with evolution? Again, I didn't say we shouldn't treat. And I'm not antivax, no. When done right, vaccination enhances evolution. (FWIW I'm less convinced about giving flu shots to people with healthy immune systems for the same reason most sensible people are concerned about over-prescription of antibiotics). In short, I'm fine with any medical intervention that steers the world further down the right path (I.e., enhances evolution). I'm very confident that the widespread prescription of amphetamines to children will one day be shown not to be good for the world. Evolution doesn't happen for a reason. The whole point of evolution is that our biology and the way our brains work is bafflingly random at times. This not a statement of established fact; it is a statement of your understanding of evolution, which may or may not be complete or correct. But natural selection is not a random process. It is a very deliberate process of adoption and distribution of traits that benefit the species. So the fact that depressive and ADHD-like behaviours exist in so many people across many different regions and cultures, indicates that they have been positively selected and reinforced over many generations. Another commenter in this subthread has offered a very plausible explanation as to why this may be. Depression is a crippling mental illness Trust me, I know, I've had it for much of my life and have witnessed many other lives be destroyed by it. it doesn't happen for a reason. Well for me the key to overcoming depression was discovering that it does have a reason, then addressing that reason at the most fundamental level (genetic expression). And now I plan to devote as much of the rest of my life and available resources as I can spare, to researching the topic so more people have the chance to be saved from this menace. Assuming that what you want is a complete end to mental illness - for everybody, regardless of their genetic predisposition - we both want the same thing.
  - jonesb6 11y ago
    I earnestly wonder what percentage would've recovered with no medication.
nerfhammer 11y ago
There's a big difference between the rigor of the question of whether ADHD is a real thing or that of ADHD diagnoses being reliable in practice. There are huge regional variations to rates of ADHD diagnosis. For example, it's 3.5x higher in North Carolina vs. Nevada. There doesn't seem to be any reason why this would be given that ADHD is believed to be almost entirely genetic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19648195 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19648195 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473855/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473855/
- Throwaway23412 11y ago
  I had to take a long questionaire, a computer program testing focus/reactions, and a comprehensive IQ test before I was diagnosed with severe impairment from ADHD a year ago. In fact, I was originally diagnosed with ADHD after taking a comprehension IQ test to get accepted to kindergarten at a magnet school, but my parents figured it was just a phase and never did anything about it. It's frustrating to think about the lack of consistency in ADHD diagnosises and treatment. In /r/ADHD (ADHD subreddit), some people get diagnosed after a few minutes of talking with a psych. Others live in countries where ADHD isn't even considered a thing. Many went through the same rounds of tests that I did. Even after diagnosis, I had the same problem as several /r/ADHD members in that the first psychiatrist I went to looked at my psychologist's diagnosis and was like "Meh, you got decent grades in high school anyway. You're just stressed/tired/depressed/etc." Wasted my time with four months on four different depression medications before I got a second opinion.
  - jwdunne 11y ago
    My (UK) diagnosis was an endurance test. It took 2 years of consultations, appointments and referrals to get a diagnosis. Of course, this is the NHS so everything non-life threatening takes longer but if there was no impact day to day there would be no motivation for the many hoops and consultations. Due to the nature of the beast, many who do suffer could drop out of such a marathon because, for example, their referral form had fallen underneath a filing cabinet due to a chaotic office and thus forgotten about by both sides (happened to me - called up because after 3 months after prodding by my mrs. She was going insane). Overdiagnosis is almost a cliché. This might happen in some places. There are just as many that the diagnosis is painful and thorough.
Spooky23 11y ago
I don't think you can responsibly state that the science is "well developed and tested" when we are prescribing dangerous medication to children to treat the fact that they were born in October. Obviously, the diagnostic protocol that allows such a situation needs some work.

by rtpg 11y ago

jonesb6 11y ago

Wait when did we get good at treating depression?

rtpg 11y ago
This is off of the top of my head, but something like 50% of people treated for depression show positive response for the treatment, and 20% achieve "full recovery" (still on meds but the symptoms linked to depression are basically gone while on meds). Meaning these people can move on with their lives not having to deal with this. Medicated treatment for ADHD has hit even higher numbers. Something like 70% of patients respond positively to medication (sometimes takes a while to get the right medication though), and 45% achieve full recovery (that is to say, ADHD stops being an issue for them if they're on their meds). I mentioned this because conventional wisdom is something like: "Yes, depression as a chemical imbalance is a thing that exists, and you can kind of do something with it through treatment." But a lot of people are also "ADHD might not even be a real thing and is a result of helicopter parenting and lazy kids". But the science is much further ahead on understanding ADHD and treating it on ADHD than depression.
- tomhoward 11y ago
  I consider it one of the great paradoxes of modern thought that the loudest proponents of evolutionary theory are often the loudest proponents/defenders of pharmaceutical-based treatment for mental illness. So the logic is: - evolution is this amazingly powerful process that has resulted in the development of a vast diversity of astonishingly sophisticated and beautiful species of plants and animals, with the most advanced observed to exist in the known universe being the human inhabitants of planet Earth. However... - a significant portion of this most beautifully evolved and advanced species are unable to function successfully without the use of medication to alter the naturally evolved chemical activity of their brain. Personally I believe the first statement too much to be able to accept the second. That is: I believe that conditions like depression and ADHD have evolved for a reason, and to suppress them with chemicals rather than understanding the reasons for their existence and responding to those reasons is to devolve or suspend evolution. Where the paradox becomes so profound and damaging is that the people who go to serious effort to understand these conditions and to develop and advocate non-pharmaceutical methods of treatment, are often condemned and mocked as un-scientific. But mercifully the tides are changing, and I can see a time in the future, not all that far off, in which we look back on the practice of dealing with non-compliant kids by feeding them amphetamines as one to be viewed with great shame.
  - OwlsParliament 11y ago
    Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments? Stopping vaccinations, because not getting smallpox is interfering with evolution? Evolution doesn't happen for a reason. The whole point of evolution is that our biology and the way our brains work is bafflingly random at times. Depression is a crippling mental illness, it doesn't happen for a reason.
    - tomhoward 11y ago
      Hi there. I'm sure you're well-intentioned, but this isn't a very charitable or productive response, and it contains at least 3 argumentative fallacies. Responding to your points... Do you also advocate stopping cancer treatments? No and that's a misrepresentation of what I said. I didn't say we shouldn't treat mental illness. I said we can do better than giving amphetamines to children as a way of dealing with aberrant behavior, and that perhaps the key to finding the best treatment is likely to be found by understanding (not denying) its evolutionary origins. I believe this to be true as I've seen this approach work on myself and others. Stopping vaccinations, because not getting smallpox is interfering with evolution? Again, I didn't say we shouldn't treat. And I'm not antivax, no. When done right, vaccination enhances evolution. (FWIW I'm less convinced about giving flu shots to people with healthy immune systems for the same reason most sensible people are concerned about over-prescription of antibiotics). In short, I'm fine with any medical intervention that steers the world further down the right path (I.e., enhances evolution). I'm very confident that the widespread prescription of amphetamines to children will one day be shown not to be good for the world. Evolution doesn't happen for a reason. The whole point of evolution is that our biology and the way our brains work is bafflingly random at times. This not a statement of established fact; it is a statement of your understanding of evolution, which may or may not be complete or correct. But natural selection is not a random process. It is a very deliberate process of adoption and distribution of traits that benefit the species. So the fact that depressive and ADHD-like behaviours exist in so many people across many different regions and cultures, indicates that they have been positively selected and reinforced over many generations. Another commenter in this subthread has offered a very plausible explanation as to why this may be. Depression is a crippling mental illness Trust me, I know, I've had it for much of my life and have witnessed many other lives be destroyed by it. it doesn't happen for a reason. Well for me the key to overcoming depression was discovering that it does have a reason, then addressing that reason at the most fundamental level (genetic expression). And now I plan to devote as much of the rest of my life and available resources as I can spare, to researching the topic so more people have the chance to be saved from this menace. Assuming that what you want is a complete end to mental illness - for everybody, regardless of their genetic predisposition - we both want the same thing.
- jonesb6 11y ago
  I earnestly wonder what percentage would've recovered with no medication.

nerfhammer 11y ago

There's a big difference between the rigor of the question of whether ADHD is a real thing or that of ADHD diagnoses being reliable in practice. There are huge regional variations to rates of ADHD diagnosis. For example, it's 3.5x higher in North Carolina vs. Nevada. There doesn't seem to be any reason why this would be given that ADHD is believed to be almost entirely genetic. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19648195 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19648195 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473855/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473855/

Throwaway23412 11y ago
I had to take a long questionaire, a computer program testing focus/reactions, and a comprehensive IQ test before I was diagnosed with severe impairment from ADHD a year ago. In fact, I was originally diagnosed with ADHD after taking a comprehension IQ test to get accepted to kindergarten at a magnet school, but my parents figured it was just a phase and never did anything about it. It's frustrating to think about the lack of consistency in ADHD diagnosises and treatment. In /r/ADHD (ADHD subreddit), some people get diagnosed after a few minutes of talking with a psych. Others live in countries where ADHD isn't even considered a thing. Many went through the same rounds of tests that I did. Even after diagnosis, I had the same problem as several /r/ADHD members in that the first psychiatrist I went to looked at my psychologist's diagnosis and was like "Meh, you got decent grades in high school anyway. You're just stressed/tired/depressed/etc." Wasted my time with four months on four different depression medications before I got a second opinion.
- jwdunne 11y ago
  My (UK) diagnosis was an endurance test. It took 2 years of consultations, appointments and referrals to get a diagnosis. Of course, this is the NHS so everything non-life threatening takes longer but if there was no impact day to day there would be no motivation for the many hoops and consultations. Due to the nature of the beast, many who do suffer could drop out of such a marathon because, for example, their referral form had fallen underneath a filing cabinet due to a chaotic office and thus forgotten about by both sides (happened to me - called up because after 3 months after prodding by my mrs. She was going insane). Overdiagnosis is almost a cliché. This might happen in some places. There are just as many that the diagnosis is painful and thorough.

Spooky23 11y ago

I don't think you can responsibly state that the science is "well developed and tested" when we are prescribing dangerous medication to children to treat the fact that they were born in October. Obviously, the diagnostic protocol that allows such a situation needs some work.