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In the end, they are going to introduce laws that make it illegal to implement end-to-end encryption. This sucks, but it's going to happen. France is already

In the end, they are going to introduce laws that make it illegal to implement end-to-end encryption. This sucks, but it's going to happen. France is already moving to do it [1], and in the US, John McCain and others are also calling for similar laws [2]. They will all start off saying that it will be controlled carefully etc., as Obama keeps saying, and then it will be used with reckless abandonment. What this essentially means is a move to Android for criminals, terrorists, and anyone that wants privacy (since Android allows installation of apps that have not been approved by a gatekeeper bound by the laws of the countries it operates in, whereas iOS does not by default). Open source Android apps with strong encryption will be built in countries without such laws. All of this will likely be the downfall of a few lazy drug dealers that don't want to give up their iPhones, but since the cat is out of the bag and apps with end-to-end encryption already exist and will continue to be built, the governments making these moves will not actually catch any reasonably intelligent terrorists that install and use these apps. They will, however, gain exactly what they want: the ability to conduct surveillance on most people in the world whenever they want. [1] http://fortune.com/2016/03/04/french-law-apple-iphone-encryption/ http://fortune.com/2016/03/04/french-law-apple-iphone-encryp... [2] http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/senator-mccain-joins-the-call-for-new-laws-against-end-to-end-encryption/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/senator-mccain-joins-...

beeboop 11y ago
I cannot fathom end to end encryption ever being made illegal. I tremendously doubt this will ever happen in any effective manner. At worst, they will pass from vaguely worded bill that makes it illegal in the sense that you are required to decrypt data on demand for any government agency. But since we are already seeing the trend of service providers being unable to decrypt user data, I doubt that will be much of an issue either. We will probably start seeing a lot more people getting locked up for decades for "contempt of court" by refusing or being unable to decrypt their personal data for a judge. Current record for contempt is 14 years - with no conviction and no jury.
- jacquesm 11y ago
  If you're not willing to revolt over it then it is definitely a possibility that end-to-end encryption will be made illegal. Non-techies simply don't care, they have 'nothing to hide' (or so they think).
  - beeboop 11y ago
    I don't think it will happen due to the impossibility of actually enforcing it, hence "effective manner" in my OP.
    - cmurf 11y ago
      I think it's naive to underestimate a government's ability to coerce people into not using it. There are many surviving illiberal democracies and it really wouldn't take that much to get the U.S. to trend more toward illiberalism either. Lavabit?
      - beeboop 11y ago
        The Lavabit case was only contentious because of a very poor implementation of encrypted user data. It won't be long until there are established platforms and libraries that are used by most apps that fix the technical problems of Lavabit. Mega (the file uploading service) is pretty close to having a reasonably fool proof design, in that the most security conscious users are unlikely to have any external party be able to send malicious code that prevents the security and effectiveness of client side encryption.
Zigurd 11y ago
One of the best ways to make such actions fail is to proliferate strong encryption in OTT messaging and for system software makers to create interfaces that enable third parties to make encryption products for all purposes including voice calls. Making broad swathes of widely used software into contraband will be a law enforcement nightmare.
studentrob 11y ago
I'm not convinced this will get past our Congress. Lindsey Graham is also not convinced [1] The reason the Apple case is in the courts is nobody wanted to put their name on this encryption bill without understanding it. Feinstein is one of the only ones willing to so far [2]. Basically, any politician who feels they are at about the end of their career might put forth such legislation, but all the others know it'd be suicide. [1] https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=1m44s https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=1m44s [2] http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-cybersecurity/2016/02/march-is-encryption-bill-month-hackers-going-after-japans-infrastructure-a-mixed-final-2015-tally-212865 http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-cybersecurity/2016...

beeboop 11y ago

I cannot fathom end to end encryption ever being made illegal. I tremendously doubt this will ever happen in any effective manner. At worst, they will pass from vaguely worded bill that makes it illegal in the sense that you are required to decrypt data on demand for any government agency. But since we are already seeing the trend of service providers being unable to decrypt user data, I doubt that will be much of an issue either. We will probably start seeing a lot more people getting locked up for decades for "contempt of court" by refusing or being unable to decrypt their personal data for a judge. Current record for contempt is 14 years - with no conviction and no jury.

jacquesm 11y ago
If you're not willing to revolt over it then it is definitely a possibility that end-to-end encryption will be made illegal. Non-techies simply don't care, they have 'nothing to hide' (or so they think).
- beeboop 11y ago
  I don't think it will happen due to the impossibility of actually enforcing it, hence "effective manner" in my OP.
  - cmurf 11y ago
    I think it's naive to underestimate a government's ability to coerce people into not using it. There are many surviving illiberal democracies and it really wouldn't take that much to get the U.S. to trend more toward illiberalism either. Lavabit?
    - beeboop 11y ago
      The Lavabit case was only contentious because of a very poor implementation of encrypted user data. It won't be long until there are established platforms and libraries that are used by most apps that fix the technical problems of Lavabit. Mega (the file uploading service) is pretty close to having a reasonably fool proof design, in that the most security conscious users are unlikely to have any external party be able to send malicious code that prevents the security and effectiveness of client side encryption.

Zigurd 11y ago

One of the best ways to make such actions fail is to proliferate strong encryption in OTT messaging and for system software makers to create interfaces that enable third parties to make encryption products for all purposes including voice calls. Making broad swathes of widely used software into contraband will be a law enforcement nightmare.

studentrob 11y ago

I'm not convinced this will get past our Congress. Lindsey Graham is also not convinced [1] The reason the Apple case is in the courts is nobody wanted to put their name on this encryption bill without understanding it. Feinstein is one of the only ones willing to so far [2]. Basically, any politician who feels they are at about the end of their career might put forth such legislation, but all the others know it'd be suicide. [1] https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=1m44s https://youtu.be/uk4hYAwCdhU?t=1m44s [2] http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-cybersecurity/2016/02/march-is-encryption-bill-month-hackers-going-after-japans-infrastructure-a-mixed-final-2015-tally-212865 http://www.politico.com/tipsheets/morning-cybersecurity/2016...