8 ms·

I'll risk assumption that somebody from Deepmind team is reading this. Guys, please, publish charts of win prob estimated by alpha go in time during these game

by comboy 11y ago

I'll risk assumption that somebody from Deepmind team is reading this. Guys, please, publish charts of win prob estimated by alpha go in time during these games. Some heatmap telling which moves did it consider as best for both sides during the games would also be cool, but that's surely more time consuming to prepare. It would be great to be able to have such things for top pro tournaments in the future.

magoghm 11y ago
That would be awesome.
lifthrasiir 11y ago
I.e. Something like [1] for every move. I was a bit disappointed to learn that such table is only available for that particluar move at the first reading. [1] http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v529/n7587/fig_tab/nature16961_F5.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v529/n7587/fig_tab/natu...
- fdej 11y ago
  Off-topic: we (the human species) have built an AI that can master the game of Go, but we don't yet have the intelligence to publish charts correctly on the web. That blur of a JPG is half a megabyte!
  - cooper12 11y ago
    Yeah honestly that would be much better presented as an SVG since its mostly solid colors and geometric shapes. Every browsers supports them, and all the big image editors as well; the trouble is that the rest of our software and culture hasn't caught on. Why am I taking bitmap screenshots of websites when they're almost completely text? We need to start building a tools ecosystem around vector graphics. An extra bonus would be a machine-readable representation of the board as well. We live in a digital age, but its almost like we're cavemen still dealing with the modern equivalent of analog formats. (And at least analog has fidelity)
    - dr_zoidberg 11y ago
      Screenshots might not be the best example, since there may be some "shiny cute effects" going around. However, reading your idea sprang another one in my head: screenshots shouldn't be restrained to the same rendering resolution as the rest of the system/the screenshot resolution should be configurable. I don't require the screenshot to be instantaneous, I require it to appear instantaneous. In that sense, if the whole rendering pipeline is working to give me a framerate of 60 fps, then I could spend ten times as much rendering a screenshot without that delay being noticeable. Also, why on earth does Windows (don't know the behaviour on Linux/Mac) apply ClearType to a screenshot? That has always bugged me, there are some situations where you tolerate it and others where it hurts.
  - massemphasis 11y ago
    It didn't master anything. What the DeepMind team did was make an "AI" which means it can _imitate_ (to a certain degree) of "playing go".
    - taejo 11y ago
      What's the difference between "imitating" playing go and playing go, when it can beat any one us at go?
glasslion 11y ago
Actually, it's a tradition that both Players should replay the game after the match, discuss about good moves, bad moves and what they were thinking during the match. I felt so sorry for Lee Sedol when I saw him lose the second match, facing an empty chair ,and he could only ask one of his friend to review the game. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%8D%E7%9B%98 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%8D%E7%9B%98
- ktRolster 11y ago
  He made $30k for losing that game, so I don't feel too sorry for him.
  - vowelless 11y ago
    If it really was about money, I don't think he would have spent so much of his life dedicated to Go ...
    - simondedalus 11y ago
      yeah, not to belabor it, but if you can do something like be a champion in go or chess, chances are you have the mental skillset to do something exponentially more lucrative.
      - _yosefk 11y ago
        I dunno, Bobby Fischer was kinda deranged, for instance, and that often hurts outcomes in otherwise "lucrative" positions. Incidentally, he is credited with raising chess player compensation through his demands. Generally I'd guess you're right though.
        iheartmemcache 11y ago
        Maybe not a leadership position but I've worked on the engineering side of quant work and am familiar enough with fairly advanced Go / Chess players (e.g. national youth champions for age brackets for the US) to know that most of them could make enough to retire off one years salary during the boom years of algorithmic trading (~2003-2007ish). I'm not sure how you define "deranged" (AFAIK, that's not a medically defined term within the DSM-IV) but most of those brilliant people end up being a little 'off'. My father was an academic, one of the people he went to graduate school with was working in Boston while I was a child. He was absolutely groundbreaking work but he's so difficult to collaborate with (think: the mannerisms of Richard Stallman) that he's been floating around universities until his welcome is worn out. He can figure out remarkable things in higher level computational chemistry, but he can't really figure out humans. Had he decided instead during the 80s to work at Renaissance instead of pursuing academic research, he almost certainly would be worth in the low hundreds of millions.

by comboy 11y ago

magoghm 11y ago

That would be awesome.

lifthrasiir 11y ago

I.e. Something like [1] for every move. I was a bit disappointed to learn that such table is only available for that particluar move at the first reading. [1] http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v529/n7587/fig_tab/nature16961_F5.html http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v529/n7587/fig_tab/natu...

fdej 11y ago
Off-topic: we (the human species) have built an AI that can master the game of Go, but we don't yet have the intelligence to publish charts correctly on the web. That blur of a JPG is half a megabyte!
- cooper12 11y ago
  Yeah honestly that would be much better presented as an SVG since its mostly solid colors and geometric shapes. Every browsers supports them, and all the big image editors as well; the trouble is that the rest of our software and culture hasn't caught on. Why am I taking bitmap screenshots of websites when they're almost completely text? We need to start building a tools ecosystem around vector graphics. An extra bonus would be a machine-readable representation of the board as well. We live in a digital age, but its almost like we're cavemen still dealing with the modern equivalent of analog formats. (And at least analog has fidelity)
  - dr_zoidberg 11y ago
    Screenshots might not be the best example, since there may be some "shiny cute effects" going around. However, reading your idea sprang another one in my head: screenshots shouldn't be restrained to the same rendering resolution as the rest of the system/the screenshot resolution should be configurable. I don't require the screenshot to be instantaneous, I require it to appear instantaneous. In that sense, if the whole rendering pipeline is working to give me a framerate of 60 fps, then I could spend ten times as much rendering a screenshot without that delay being noticeable. Also, why on earth does Windows (don't know the behaviour on Linux/Mac) apply ClearType to a screenshot? That has always bugged me, there are some situations where you tolerate it and others where it hurts.
- massemphasis 11y ago
  It didn't master anything. What the DeepMind team did was make an "AI" which means it can _imitate_ (to a certain degree) of "playing go".
  - taejo 11y ago
    What's the difference between "imitating" playing go and playing go, when it can beat any one us at go?

glasslion 11y ago

Actually, it's a tradition that both Players should replay the game after the match, discuss about good moves, bad moves and what they were thinking during the match. I felt so sorry for Lee Sedol when I saw him lose the second match, facing an empty chair ,and he could only ask one of his friend to review the game. https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%8D%E7%9B%98 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A4%8D%E7%9B%98

ktRolster 11y ago
He made $30k for losing that game, so I don't feel too sorry for him.
- vowelless 11y ago
  If it really was about money, I don't think he would have spent so much of his life dedicated to Go ...
  - simondedalus 11y ago
    yeah, not to belabor it, but if you can do something like be a champion in go or chess, chances are you have the mental skillset to do something exponentially more lucrative.
    - _yosefk 11y ago
      I dunno, Bobby Fischer was kinda deranged, for instance, and that often hurts outcomes in otherwise "lucrative" positions. Incidentally, he is credited with raising chess player compensation through his demands. Generally I'd guess you're right though.
      - iheartmemcache 11y ago
        Maybe not a leadership position but I've worked on the engineering side of quant work and am familiar enough with fairly advanced Go / Chess players (e.g. national youth champions for age brackets for the US) to know that most of them could make enough to retire off one years salary during the boom years of algorithmic trading (~2003-2007ish). I'm not sure how you define "deranged" (AFAIK, that's not a medically defined term within the DSM-IV) but most of those brilliant people end up being a little 'off'. My father was an academic, one of the people he went to graduate school with was working in Boston while I was a child. He was absolutely groundbreaking work but he's so difficult to collaborate with (think: the mannerisms of Richard Stallman) that he's been floating around universities until his welcome is worn out. He can figure out remarkable things in higher level computational chemistry, but he can't really figure out humans. Had he decided instead during the 80s to work at Renaissance instead of pursuing academic research, he almost certainly would be worth in the low hundreds of millions.