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Interesting thoughts. To me, it has always seemed like, if I had something figured out, that had made me happy, i would WANT to share it, if it could help other

Interesting thoughts. To me, it has always seemed like, if I had something figured out, that had made me happy, i would WANT to share it, if it could help others. When people find a diet or an exercise regimen that works for them, they love to talk about it. I don't think it purely comes down to boasting. I agree that people with deeper wisdom will often be less eager to boast or force their values on others. But I also think there are some people who, in the spirit of helpfulness, are sharing positive values - they just don't have the megaphone that movies, ads, and pundits have.

nostrademons 11y ago
That works great until you realize that other people often have different value systems. What you're super proud of may be deeply offensive to another person. Just think about how saying "I'm a Googler, and proud of the work I do" might go over for a CS student vs. how it goes ever for the journalist who's struggling to make a living because Google has commoditized the news business. In practice, what usually happens is people end up self-organizing into small communities of like-minded people. Within the community, values are very homogenous, and people can feel safe that they have a good pulse on what will be offensive vs. what won't be. But when one community meets another, they're often shocked at how barbaric the rest of humanity can be. (Just look at the Trump vs. Sanders melee that played out in Chicago last night.) And the more differentiated and more nuanced someone's views are, the less they fit into any one community. There are plenty of people whose personal relationships are entirely personal because they're at the point where no one group is going to give them that feeling of belonging.
- ArkyBeagle 11y ago
  I don't much socialize with the people I work with. The people I do socialize with are not from within my industry.
- burgessaccount 11y ago
  I think it's interesting you're describing values systems in terms of particular jobs. Like, I work as a writer, and I do value the work that I do, but I don't think of that as my values - my values are: sound, well-researched information; kindness; humor; creativity; taking care of important resources; starting good conversations... It is difficult to believe that any of those values are "deeply offensive"to anyone - and if a person finds them offensive, I do want to change that person's mind. I agree that values are often associated with a community, but i think the work of speaking across community lines to find common values is deeply important - particularly in a far-flung democracy. In your Sanders vs. Trump example, I think actually a lot of the underlying values are the same - dignity for workers, safety for families... if we were all better at speaking about our underlying values, we would have an easier time understanding each other.
  - nostrademons 11y ago
    Devil is always in the details. At a high level, we're all human, and we all want life, liberty, connection, meaning, and the pursuit of happiness. It's just that means very different things for different people, and as folks get older, they tend to define meaning for themselves in ever more specific terms. The more specific you get, the more likely your definition will come into conflict with anothers'.
- crankypoet 11y ago
  Get Work Done Syndrome is truely a modern notion entirely absent from the laissez faire peasent farmers of yonderyear who tilled soil in return for a long glass of summer wine at the end and maybe a 20 minute long smoke of fine tobacco. Modern notions of work involve McDramas taking place in every western household where first world problems really are a truely despotic problem indeed. Master slave relationships engender this and it leads to a domestic tilling of the soil in the fields of suburbia, working for McJobs with a McPay. The kind of real work; that of some spiritual understanding, or mastering the body, or doing shadow work of the mind; 'Dumping all your ailments on a plate for those to ponder' is entirely absent in the west, where it is assumed that only those more credentialed shall offer answers, and none else. The East as far as I have gathered might have these problems just not as severe, and I worry about the encroachment & americanisation of the Eastern mindset and rich traditions and approaches to everyday existential crises.
mdpopescu 11y ago
This. I keep bugging my friends and relatives to learn programming - I make way more than the local average, and I work from home, whenever I want. I don't tell them about it because I want to brag; I do it because, to quote Miles Vorkosigan, "if I can do it, you can do it". I want them to do better, they're my friends.
- adrusi 11y ago
  The point is that they're definition of "doing better" isn't necessarily the same as yours. Maybe their idea of a good job isn't one that pays well and allows a flexible schedule, it's one that's low stress: they show up, go through the straightforward motions that they do every day, and go home. If they're interested in something intellectually stimulating, they prefer to do it on their own time, without the risk of your entire income relying on it. That's just one example. It's natural to want your loved ones to be successful, and it's human to assume that your notion of success is universal, but it's wise to realize that it's not. That said, it wouldn't be at all surprising if your friends would be better off if they got a job more like yours. The goals of high income and flexible schedule are quite popular.
  - mdpopescu 11y ago
    Yeah... it's not that they like their current job (the people I talk to mostly don't). It's that they seem to have this fixation with "it's too difficult"... my brother helps drug addict teenagers and he thinks programming is too difficult! It's driving me nuts.
    - codeisawesome 11y ago
      The mystique of "impossible" difficulty is a curious phenomenon of human thought. I am a programmer and I love to code. I definitely think creating Stock Market trading algorithms is difficult. In the absence of conscious exertion of the will to have faith in myself, I can easily slip down the slope of believing it to be impossible. Perhaps, "it's impossible" is used as a shorthand by people to state "it's impossible for me to expend the energy learning to do that". Perhaps what your brother is really trying to say is: "I think programming is going to take too much of my time and energy spent in acquiring the skill to do competently and professionally. This time and energy is better spent in analysing and helping heal the emotional landscapes of troubled young humans - because that is what appeals to my value system stronger. I wish you luck." I believe this is actually more benign and respectable than the people who think they are rockstar coders but commit toxic-waste laden mud into git repositories sometimes :-) Much respect to your brother and everyone else who follows their passion instead of what popular opinion or the media tells them is the "best thing" to do.

nostrademons 11y ago

That works great until you realize that other people often have different value systems. What you're super proud of may be deeply offensive to another person. Just think about how saying "I'm a Googler, and proud of the work I do" might go over for a CS student vs. how it goes ever for the journalist who's struggling to make a living because Google has commoditized the news business. In practice, what usually happens is people end up self-organizing into small communities of like-minded people. Within the community, values are very homogenous, and people can feel safe that they have a good pulse on what will be offensive vs. what won't be. But when one community meets another, they're often shocked at how barbaric the rest of humanity can be. (Just look at the Trump vs. Sanders melee that played out in Chicago last night.) And the more differentiated and more nuanced someone's views are, the less they fit into any one community. There are plenty of people whose personal relationships are entirely personal because they're at the point where no one group is going to give them that feeling of belonging.

ArkyBeagle 11y ago
I don't much socialize with the people I work with. The people I do socialize with are not from within my industry.
burgessaccount 11y ago
I think it's interesting you're describing values systems in terms of particular jobs. Like, I work as a writer, and I do value the work that I do, but I don't think of that as my values - my values are: sound, well-researched information; kindness; humor; creativity; taking care of important resources; starting good conversations... It is difficult to believe that any of those values are "deeply offensive"to anyone - and if a person finds them offensive, I do want to change that person's mind. I agree that values are often associated with a community, but i think the work of speaking across community lines to find common values is deeply important - particularly in a far-flung democracy. In your Sanders vs. Trump example, I think actually a lot of the underlying values are the same - dignity for workers, safety for families... if we were all better at speaking about our underlying values, we would have an easier time understanding each other.
- nostrademons 11y ago
  Devil is always in the details. At a high level, we're all human, and we all want life, liberty, connection, meaning, and the pursuit of happiness. It's just that means very different things for different people, and as folks get older, they tend to define meaning for themselves in ever more specific terms. The more specific you get, the more likely your definition will come into conflict with anothers'.
crankypoet 11y ago
Get Work Done Syndrome is truely a modern notion entirely absent from the laissez faire peasent farmers of yonderyear who tilled soil in return for a long glass of summer wine at the end and maybe a 20 minute long smoke of fine tobacco. Modern notions of work involve McDramas taking place in every western household where first world problems really are a truely despotic problem indeed. Master slave relationships engender this and it leads to a domestic tilling of the soil in the fields of suburbia, working for McJobs with a McPay. The kind of real work; that of some spiritual understanding, or mastering the body, or doing shadow work of the mind; 'Dumping all your ailments on a plate for those to ponder' is entirely absent in the west, where it is assumed that only those more credentialed shall offer answers, and none else. The East as far as I have gathered might have these problems just not as severe, and I worry about the encroachment & americanisation of the Eastern mindset and rich traditions and approaches to everyday existential crises.

mdpopescu 11y ago

This. I keep bugging my friends and relatives to learn programming - I make way more than the local average, and I work from home, whenever I want. I don't tell them about it because I want to brag; I do it because, to quote Miles Vorkosigan, "if I can do it, you can do it". I want them to do better, they're my friends.

adrusi 11y ago
The point is that they're definition of "doing better" isn't necessarily the same as yours. Maybe their idea of a good job isn't one that pays well and allows a flexible schedule, it's one that's low stress: they show up, go through the straightforward motions that they do every day, and go home. If they're interested in something intellectually stimulating, they prefer to do it on their own time, without the risk of your entire income relying on it. That's just one example. It's natural to want your loved ones to be successful, and it's human to assume that your notion of success is universal, but it's wise to realize that it's not. That said, it wouldn't be at all surprising if your friends would be better off if they got a job more like yours. The goals of high income and flexible schedule are quite popular.
- mdpopescu 11y ago
  Yeah... it's not that they like their current job (the people I talk to mostly don't). It's that they seem to have this fixation with "it's too difficult"... my brother helps drug addict teenagers and he thinks programming is too difficult! It's driving me nuts.
  - codeisawesome 11y ago
    The mystique of "impossible" difficulty is a curious phenomenon of human thought. I am a programmer and I love to code. I definitely think creating Stock Market trading algorithms is difficult. In the absence of conscious exertion of the will to have faith in myself, I can easily slip down the slope of believing it to be impossible. Perhaps, "it's impossible" is used as a shorthand by people to state "it's impossible for me to expend the energy learning to do that". Perhaps what your brother is really trying to say is: "I think programming is going to take too much of my time and energy spent in acquiring the skill to do competently and professionally. This time and energy is better spent in analysing and helping heal the emotional landscapes of troubled young humans - because that is what appeals to my value system stronger. I wish you luck." I believe this is actually more benign and respectable than the people who think they are rockstar coders but commit toxic-waste laden mud into git repositories sometimes :-) Much respect to your brother and everyone else who follows their passion instead of what popular opinion or the media tells them is the "best thing" to do.