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Let's do some research! Pew Research states that "A majority of Americans (54%) disapprove of the U.S. government’s collection of telephone and internet data a

Let's do some research! Pew Research states that "A majority of Americans (54%) disapprove of the U.S. government’s collection of telephone and internet data as part of anti-terrorism efforts".[1] So, right off the bat, we know that most people care about privacy. And maybe this meme that so many people are uncaring or ignorant about privacy will eventually die. 1: http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/29/what-americans-think-about-nsa-surveillance-national-security-and-privacy/ http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/05/29/what-america...

nickff 11y ago
This is a snapshot, when the issue has been brought to the fore; if you look at the historical data, it appears that people were more comfortable with continuous monitoring and intrusions in the past, and that they will again become more comfortable with it in the future.
- striking 11y ago
  They were fine with it until they realized their private pictures and everything else belonging to them on the web were accessible to the government. In other words, no one cared until they were made to care. No one knew the government was watching, and people who thought they were had no evidence. But that's tangential to the fact that a statistic has poked a hole through your argument about today's day and age, for which you haven't provided a counterargument. Is there a logical reason you think that people "will again become more comfortable with it" or is it just a hunch? I'm tired of the nonsense and FUD surrounding American attitudes towards privacy.
  - nickff 11y ago
    I actually looked up the Pew polling data before posting. You found a contradictory point, but not a solid case. Look at the public's reactions to the 'Echelon' program for instance, and you will see their revulsion is ephemeral. In addition, the average citizen is against general surveillance, but in favor of suspect surveillance (as you will find if you look at the data a little more closely). The only way this works is to have backdoors, which everyone here knows are flawed.
    - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
      > The only way this works is to have backdoors That is a lie. Targeted surveillance is easy if you can justify spending more resources per person than would be economical for mass surveillance. Because you don't need their own device to do the surveillance, you can use your device. Put a bug where the suspect is. You'll get surveillance of them entering their passphrase and then you can decrypt their device with it. No backdoor required. The Apple case is bizarre because the suspect is dead. Normally you don't investigate the dead because it's hard for the government to punish them.
    - striking 11y ago
      This is the kind of discourse I was looking for! Is there anywhere I can read about the public's reactions to Echelon? And in terms of suspect surveillance, do you mean terrorist suspects? While it is true that most Americans are okay with terrorist surveillance (e.g. 64% think it's acceptable, ibid.) I don't think that equates with supporting blanket 4th-amendment-breaking government surveillance on US citizens.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 11y ago
      Or in other words: People always see themselves as good, then naively assume that therefore everyone else does, too, and that therefore obviously nobody would want to watch them, and therefore agree that surveillance of bad people is ok, as it couldn't possibly ever affect themselves. People generally aren't actually ok with surveillance, but rather they don't understand the dynamics of surveillance and thus ultimately don't actually understand the question they are answering in such a poll.
ktRolster 11y ago
I see your poll, and raise you another! 60% favor renewal of the bulk-data-collection programs. (Ha! Since 60% is higher than 54% I win! That's how you do statistics, right?) http://kron4.com/2015/06/01/poll-6-in-10-back-renewal-of-nsa-data-collection/ http://kron4.com/2015/06/01/poll-6-in-10-back-renewal-of-nsa... Interesting thing about all these polls, it's not split on party lines. The two major parties (and independents as well) are divided about whether they favor or oppose it.
- striking 11y ago
  Great find! So I may be wrong, but at least we can agree that the outlook isn't as bleak as some people think.

nickff 11y ago

This is a snapshot, when the issue has been brought to the fore; if you look at the historical data, it appears that people were more comfortable with continuous monitoring and intrusions in the past, and that they will again become more comfortable with it in the future.

striking 11y ago
They were fine with it until they realized their private pictures and everything else belonging to them on the web were accessible to the government. In other words, no one cared until they were made to care. No one knew the government was watching, and people who thought they were had no evidence. But that's tangential to the fact that a statistic has poked a hole through your argument about today's day and age, for which you haven't provided a counterargument. Is there a logical reason you think that people "will again become more comfortable with it" or is it just a hunch? I'm tired of the nonsense and FUD surrounding American attitudes towards privacy.
- nickff 11y ago
  I actually looked up the Pew polling data before posting. You found a contradictory point, but not a solid case. Look at the public's reactions to the 'Echelon' program for instance, and you will see their revulsion is ephemeral. In addition, the average citizen is against general surveillance, but in favor of suspect surveillance (as you will find if you look at the data a little more closely). The only way this works is to have backdoors, which everyone here knows are flawed.
  - AnthonyMouse 11y ago
    > The only way this works is to have backdoors That is a lie. Targeted surveillance is easy if you can justify spending more resources per person than would be economical for mass surveillance. Because you don't need their own device to do the surveillance, you can use your device. Put a bug where the suspect is. You'll get surveillance of them entering their passphrase and then you can decrypt their device with it. No backdoor required. The Apple case is bizarre because the suspect is dead. Normally you don't investigate the dead because it's hard for the government to punish them.
  - striking 11y ago
    This is the kind of discourse I was looking for! Is there anywhere I can read about the public's reactions to Echelon? And in terms of suspect surveillance, do you mean terrorist suspects? While it is true that most Americans are okay with terrorist surveillance (e.g. 64% think it's acceptable, ibid.) I don't think that equates with supporting blanket 4th-amendment-breaking government surveillance on US citizens.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 11y ago
    Or in other words: People always see themselves as good, then naively assume that therefore everyone else does, too, and that therefore obviously nobody would want to watch them, and therefore agree that surveillance of bad people is ok, as it couldn't possibly ever affect themselves. People generally aren't actually ok with surveillance, but rather they don't understand the dynamics of surveillance and thus ultimately don't actually understand the question they are answering in such a poll.

ktRolster 11y ago

I see your poll, and raise you another! 60% favor renewal of the bulk-data-collection programs. (Ha! Since 60% is higher than 54% I win! That's how you do statistics, right?) http://kron4.com/2015/06/01/poll-6-in-10-back-renewal-of-nsa-data-collection/ http://kron4.com/2015/06/01/poll-6-in-10-back-renewal-of-nsa... Interesting thing about all these polls, it's not split on party lines. The two major parties (and independents as well) are divided about whether they favor or oppose it.

striking 11y ago
Great find! So I may be wrong, but at least we can agree that the outlook isn't as bleak as some people think.