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One form of means-tested basic income is negative income tax, which economists like Milton Friedman supported. However, some basic income supporters don't seem

One form of means-tested basic income is negative income tax, which economists like Milton Friedman supported. However, some basic income supporters don't seem to like means testing, but they usually don't show how to fund universal basic income other than saying (a) streamlining bureaucracy and (b) more taxes for the rich will fund it.

qrendel 11y ago
I'm not really inclined to spend time on a detailed analysis at the moment, but given what the US wastes (imo) on military spending and healthcare (relative to other similar nations, e.g. Canada), you could get a good portion of the way to a UBI just by cuts to those and similar programs. A previous back-of-envelope estimate put it at around $6,800/person just for halving the total military budget (not just DoD) and switching to single-payer.
- marcoperaza 11y ago
  Canada isn't responsible for keeping the peace and keeping trading routes open in Europe, the South China Sea, the Persian Gulf, etc. Nor is it responsible for defending Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Nor will it be be able to make any decisive contributions to the defense of the easternmost NATO countries. The West's military might rests almost entirely in the United States. You don't want to see a world where we don't inspire fear in the halls of power of China and Russia. Never have the good been so much more powerful than the bad. Let's keep it that way. ==================================================== I've been rate-limited by HN, so here's my response to derefr: ==================================================== That's a good point. I've heard the argument that the US's defense of Europe has infantilized Europeans into thinking that they don't need military might, that institutions like the ICC and the UN can actually keep them safe. Much like a child doesn't understand the value of money because he's never had to work for it. I think there's a little more to it than that; the horrors of the two world wars are surely part of Europeans' distaste for military power. Unfortunately, if the US just withdrew its defense of Europe, I have no doubt that Russia would conquer the rest of Ukraine and the Baltics. Japan has been trying to become more responsible for its own defense under Prime Minister Abe, but look at the vicious opposition he's gotten for it. Maybe one day the political tides will shift in Europe and elsewhere and the US can responsibly hand over some of its current military obligations. For now, I reckon it's a price worth paying for a world of peace and commerce. And in which America does exceedingly well.
  - derefr 11y ago
    You'd think, if these countries also benefited economically (presumably more so than the US does, even) from being defended, then the cost of doing so could be made part of their budgets. Nobody's suggesting taking the US military off of these tasks; it's a question of where to send the bill.
    - enraged_camel 11y ago
      The US may not be getting paid for it, but it receives enormous political capital for it. And that can be far more valuable in a lot of situations.
    - jacquesm 11y ago
      It's a mixed bag. The US is part of the solution but also part of the problem.
  - qrendel 11y ago
    Similarly to what the other reply said, if the claim is that these countries can only afford to provide healthcare for their citizens because the US subsidizes their defense, then the implication is that the US is paying for both their defense and healthcare at the expense of its own people. But the US military budget is enormous, and has largely failed to achieve any of the major foreign policy goals it's been applied towards. After 15 years of wars in the Middle East things are as bad as ever. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria are hardly on the road to stable democratic governments such much as bogged down (to one degree or another) in internal conflicts and civil wars. Russia and China are already kept in check by NATO, around 2/3rds of whose ~3.5 million active military personnel are not US based, aside from other non-conventional military deterrents (e.g. nukes and economic sanctions). Framing US foreign policy as "good vs bad" with the military as being the only thing keeping the evil foreign hordes at bay is borderline agitprop. That aside, my point was that the money is there for UBI, it's just a question of what other programs to take it from. Military spending and healthcare are two of the largest portions of the budget (along with social security, which would also be partially replaced by a UBI), so while people might debate the merits and dangers of cutting those programs, the money could certainly be found without significantly increasing taxes on the rich.
- qnnlu 11y ago
  I think those numbers are not right. To give all Americans 7K, you may need $2T. That is half of the the total budget of the federal government.

qrendel 11y ago

I'm not really inclined to spend time on a detailed analysis at the moment, but given what the US wastes (imo) on military spending and healthcare (relative to other similar nations, e.g. Canada), you could get a good portion of the way to a UBI just by cuts to those and similar programs. A previous back-of-envelope estimate put it at around $6,800/person just for halving the total military budget (not just DoD) and switching to single-payer.

marcoperaza 11y ago
Canada isn't responsible for keeping the peace and keeping trading routes open in Europe, the South China Sea, the Persian Gulf, etc. Nor is it responsible for defending Taiwan, South Korea, and Japan. Nor will it be be able to make any decisive contributions to the defense of the easternmost NATO countries. The West's military might rests almost entirely in the United States. You don't want to see a world where we don't inspire fear in the halls of power of China and Russia. Never have the good been so much more powerful than the bad. Let's keep it that way. ==================================================== I've been rate-limited by HN, so here's my response to derefr: ==================================================== That's a good point. I've heard the argument that the US's defense of Europe has infantilized Europeans into thinking that they don't need military might, that institutions like the ICC and the UN can actually keep them safe. Much like a child doesn't understand the value of money because he's never had to work for it. I think there's a little more to it than that; the horrors of the two world wars are surely part of Europeans' distaste for military power. Unfortunately, if the US just withdrew its defense of Europe, I have no doubt that Russia would conquer the rest of Ukraine and the Baltics. Japan has been trying to become more responsible for its own defense under Prime Minister Abe, but look at the vicious opposition he's gotten for it. Maybe one day the political tides will shift in Europe and elsewhere and the US can responsibly hand over some of its current military obligations. For now, I reckon it's a price worth paying for a world of peace and commerce. And in which America does exceedingly well.
- derefr 11y ago
  You'd think, if these countries also benefited economically (presumably more so than the US does, even) from being defended, then the cost of doing so could be made part of their budgets. Nobody's suggesting taking the US military off of these tasks; it's a question of where to send the bill.
  - enraged_camel 11y ago
    The US may not be getting paid for it, but it receives enormous political capital for it. And that can be far more valuable in a lot of situations.
  - jacquesm 11y ago
    It's a mixed bag. The US is part of the solution but also part of the problem.
- qrendel 11y ago
  Similarly to what the other reply said, if the claim is that these countries can only afford to provide healthcare for their citizens because the US subsidizes their defense, then the implication is that the US is paying for both their defense and healthcare at the expense of its own people. But the US military budget is enormous, and has largely failed to achieve any of the major foreign policy goals it's been applied towards. After 15 years of wars in the Middle East things are as bad as ever. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria are hardly on the road to stable democratic governments such much as bogged down (to one degree or another) in internal conflicts and civil wars. Russia and China are already kept in check by NATO, around 2/3rds of whose ~3.5 million active military personnel are not US based, aside from other non-conventional military deterrents (e.g. nukes and economic sanctions). Framing US foreign policy as "good vs bad" with the military as being the only thing keeping the evil foreign hordes at bay is borderline agitprop. That aside, my point was that the money is there for UBI, it's just a question of what other programs to take it from. Military spending and healthcare are two of the largest portions of the budget (along with social security, which would also be partially replaced by a UBI), so while people might debate the merits and dangers of cutting those programs, the money could certainly be found without significantly increasing taxes on the rich.
qnnlu 11y ago
I think those numbers are not right. To give all Americans 7K, you may need $2T. That is half of the the total budget of the federal government.