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Two strong assumptions in your comment: 1) "there won't be enough people giving back into the system" Considering the fact that we don't even know precisely ho

by nokya 11y ago

Two strong assumptions in your comment: 1) "there won't be enough people giving back into the system" Considering the fact that we don't even know precisely how it will be financed, why is this already a conclusion? 2) "I wish we had laws in place that all voters had to at least 1) have a job 2) proof they paid income taxes" I have never seen any factual data supporting this. Actually, surveys seem to support the exact opposite: a large majority of people without work want to work, and a considerable portion of employed people wish they didn't have to work anymore to pay their basic utility bills. And would you surrender your right to vote just because you got laid off last month?

ChrisLomont 11y ago
>Considering the fact that we don't even know precisely how it will be financed If it's paid for by creating new money, this has historically led to hyperinflation. If it's paid for out of revenue, by definition it comes from taxes, and no matter what source those taxes, they come from income that would have gone to people. Thus the common economic maxim that only people pay taxes. So either it's printing money or it's coming from people. Do you have a third option?
- chadzawistowski 11y ago
  Hyperinflation is not a foregone conclusion of printing new money; it depends on how fast it is printed. >Hyperinflations are usually caused by large persistent government deficits financed primarily by money creation (rather than taxation or borrowing). As such, hyperinflation is often associated with wars, their aftermath, sociopolitical upheavals, or other crises that make it difficult for the government to tax the population. A sharp decrease in real tax revenue coupled with a strong need to maintain the status quo, together with an inability or unwillingness to borrow, can lead a country into hyperinflation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation
  - ChrisLomont 11y ago
    I agree, but printing enough to pay "living" income for a decent percent of a population will lead to hyperinflation. That is a substantial amount. Consider what would happen if instead of using taxes to pay SS in the US we just printed that much each year. It would be a disaster. I was pointing out to the OP that his implication that the money will not be paid by others through taxes at some level is unlikely. Printing enough to make a basic income program for a populace is economic suicide.
    - chadzawistowski 11y ago
      >Consider what would happen if instead of using taxes to pay SS in the US we just printed that much each year. It would be a disaster. Would it? In the eight years since 2008, the Federal Reserve's balance sheet has grown by nearly $4.5 trillion[0], mostly to the benefit of financial institutions and the stock market. Meanwhile, the cost of social security in 2015 was $888 billion. The first quantitative easing was an emergency response, sure. Yet it expanded by an additional $2 trillion since 2010! I have to wonder if this money would be better allocated to living income, putting cash in the hands of consumers and boosting aggregate demand. [0] 2015 Federal Balance Sheet Report http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/quarterly_balance_sheet_developments_report_201511.pdf http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/quarterly...
- colomon 11y ago
  Surely the provincial government of Ontario doesn't have the power to unilaterally print Canadian money?

by nokya 11y ago

ChrisLomont 11y ago

>Considering the fact that we don't even know precisely how it will be financed If it's paid for by creating new money, this has historically led to hyperinflation. If it's paid for out of revenue, by definition it comes from taxes, and no matter what source those taxes, they come from income that would have gone to people. Thus the common economic maxim that only people pay taxes. So either it's printing money or it's coming from people. Do you have a third option?

chadzawistowski 11y ago
Hyperinflation is not a foregone conclusion of printing new money; it depends on how fast it is printed. >Hyperinflations are usually caused by large persistent government deficits financed primarily by money creation (rather than taxation or borrowing). As such, hyperinflation is often associated with wars, their aftermath, sociopolitical upheavals, or other crises that make it difficult for the government to tax the population. A sharp decrease in real tax revenue coupled with a strong need to maintain the status quo, together with an inability or unwillingness to borrow, can lead a country into hyperinflation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation
- ChrisLomont 11y ago
  I agree, but printing enough to pay "living" income for a decent percent of a population will lead to hyperinflation. That is a substantial amount. Consider what would happen if instead of using taxes to pay SS in the US we just printed that much each year. It would be a disaster. I was pointing out to the OP that his implication that the money will not be paid by others through taxes at some level is unlikely. Printing enough to make a basic income program for a populace is economic suicide.
  - chadzawistowski 11y ago
    >Consider what would happen if instead of using taxes to pay SS in the US we just printed that much each year. It would be a disaster. Would it? In the eight years since 2008, the Federal Reserve's balance sheet has grown by nearly $4.5 trillion[0], mostly to the benefit of financial institutions and the stock market. Meanwhile, the cost of social security in 2015 was $888 billion. The first quantitative easing was an emergency response, sure. Yet it expanded by an additional $2 trillion since 2010! I have to wonder if this money would be better allocated to living income, putting cash in the hands of consumers and boosting aggregate demand. [0] 2015 Federal Balance Sheet Report http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/quarterly_balance_sheet_developments_report_201511.pdf http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/files/quarterly...
colomon 11y ago
Surely the provincial government of Ontario doesn't have the power to unilaterally print Canadian money?