6 ms·

The problem with React is its patent rider. React.js comes with a BSD license, but has a patent rider that gives you a license to React's patents. This sounds l

The problem with React is its patent rider. React.js comes with a BSD license, but has a patent rider that gives you a license to React's patents. This sounds like a good thing, right? But this rider has a "strong retaliation clause" which says that if you make any sort of patent claim against Facebook this patent license automatically terminates. Which means Facebook can now sue you for patent infringement for using React. You may think this is no worse than not having a patent rider at all. But that's not the case. If there is no patent rider then there is an implicit grant which cannot be revoked. If you work for a software company and your company has patents then keep in mind that by using React you are giving Facebook a free license to your entire patent portfolio. More info on weak vs strong retaliation clauses: http://www.rosenlaw.com/lj9.htm http://www.rosenlaw.com/lj9.htm

jwingy 11y ago
Wow never knew. That's a pretty huge barrier that more people should know about.....
dsp1234 11y ago
you are giving Facebook a free license to your entire patent portfolio. It's bad, but it's not quite that bad. Theoretically, you could stop using React, then start the patent litigation. Then Facebook could not sue you for React because at the time litigation started you were not using the license. But that's definitely a high barrier to jump if you've built up react as a core part of web and/or native applications.
Lazare 11y ago
> You may think this is no worse than not having a patent rider at all. But that's not the case. If there is no patent rider then there is an implicit grant which cannot be revoked. I believe a couple of lawyers have suggested that this could, maybe, arguably be true. However, no court has ever ruled as such, and the consensus among IP lawyers is that it's an unlikely outcome. If you're worried about potential patent lawsuits, I would NOT suggest relying on the vague hope that someday a court might read an implicit patent grant into the BSD license, especially when you'll be facing off with Facebook's lawyers. Or do you have some citation for the "implicit patent grant"? In particular, a court decision finding one?
SiVal 11y ago
if you make any sort of patent claim against Facebook My understanding (and I'm asking for correction, if I'm wrong) is that last year FB changed this provision to only cover patents on technologies within React itself, not "any sort of patent claim against Facebook", which WAS the situation before they changed it. So, the current state is a grant of "you are licensed to use our React patents at no cost as long as you don't try to make a legal claim that any of our React patents are not legally ours."
- Lazare 11y ago
  Not exactly. The diff is here: https://github.com/facebook/react/commit/b8ba8c83f318b84e42933f6928f231dc0918f864 https://github.com/facebook/react/commit/b8ba8c83f318b84e429... The old grant terminated if, among other things, you argued that any Facebook patent was invalid or unenforcable. This meant that if Facebook sued you over an unrelated patent, you couldn't defend yourself without the React patent grant terminating. The new grant specifically exempts any counterclaims; you can't lose your patent grant just because you defend yourself. You can still lose it if you sue Facebook over unrelated patents.
- interlocutor 11y ago
  No, that's incorrect. It is any patent assertion against Facebook. Read it for yourself: https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS
Silhouette 11y ago
The problem with React is its patent rider. React.js comes with a BSD license, but has a patent rider that gives you a license to React's patents. The obvious next question is: what patents are necessarily infringed in the first place, just because you used React? It's a useful tool, but even if Facebook have successfully acquired relevant US software patents, it's hard to believe there's anything significant in there that had no prior art. GUI programmers have been specifying presentation details declaratively, using templates, and bundling updates for performance since long before the existence of React (or Facebook, for that matter).
- tobltobs 11y ago
  The obvious problem with this interpretation is that it doesn't matter if a patent contains anything significant. How much cash you have and how long you can endure the uncertaintities which come with a legal confrontation with facebooks lawyers are what matters.
  - Silhouette 11y ago
    Your "obvious" problem is based on the premise that whoever has the most money will win a lawsuit in the US. In that case, almost no-one using React needs to worry about this, because either Facebook is going to come after them and they will lose but that could happen regardless of how they act, or Facebook is going to decide they don't want to come after them and it doesn't matter.
    - marcus_holmes 11y ago
      This. I get that there's a few corporates that might have a patent portfolio they'd conceivably want to enforce against Facebook. But for the rest of humanity this is just a non-argument. If FB want to pick a fight with you, you're in a fight whether you use React or not.
      - tobltobs 11y ago
        It's just that with using react you leave your castles gate wide open.
matthewmacleod 11y ago
I'm not completely on board with this argument. In particular, there may not be any patents on React in the first place, and the 'implicit grant' included in the BSD license is legally sketchy at best – AFAIK it has not been tested, which suggests that relying on any BSD licensed software exposes you to legal risk where you do not have an explicit patent license.
guelo 11y ago
This clause is awesome. Software patents are awful and this clause reduces the chances of patent lawsuits.

jwingy 11y ago

Wow never knew. That's a pretty huge barrier that more people should know about.....

dsp1234 11y ago

you are giving Facebook a free license to your entire patent portfolio. It's bad, but it's not quite that bad. Theoretically, you could stop using React, then start the patent litigation. Then Facebook could not sue you for React because at the time litigation started you were not using the license. But that's definitely a high barrier to jump if you've built up react as a core part of web and/or native applications.

Lazare 11y ago

> You may think this is no worse than not having a patent rider at all. But that's not the case. If there is no patent rider then there is an implicit grant which cannot be revoked. I believe a couple of lawyers have suggested that this could, maybe, arguably be true. However, no court has ever ruled as such, and the consensus among IP lawyers is that it's an unlikely outcome. If you're worried about potential patent lawsuits, I would NOT suggest relying on the vague hope that someday a court might read an implicit patent grant into the BSD license, especially when you'll be facing off with Facebook's lawyers. Or do you have some citation for the "implicit patent grant"? In particular, a court decision finding one?

SiVal 11y ago

if you make any sort of patent claim against Facebook My understanding (and I'm asking for correction, if I'm wrong) is that last year FB changed this provision to only cover patents on technologies within React itself, not "any sort of patent claim against Facebook", which WAS the situation before they changed it. So, the current state is a grant of "you are licensed to use our React patents at no cost as long as you don't try to make a legal claim that any of our React patents are not legally ours."

Lazare 11y ago
Not exactly. The diff is here: https://github.com/facebook/react/commit/b8ba8c83f318b84e42933f6928f231dc0918f864 https://github.com/facebook/react/commit/b8ba8c83f318b84e429... The old grant terminated if, among other things, you argued that any Facebook patent was invalid or unenforcable. This meant that if Facebook sued you over an unrelated patent, you couldn't defend yourself without the React patent grant terminating. The new grant specifically exempts any counterclaims; you can't lose your patent grant just because you defend yourself. You can still lose it if you sue Facebook over unrelated patents.
interlocutor 11y ago
No, that's incorrect. It is any patent assertion against Facebook. Read it for yourself: https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS https://github.com/facebook/react/blob/master/PATENTS

Silhouette 11y ago

The problem with React is its patent rider. React.js comes with a BSD license, but has a patent rider that gives you a license to React's patents. The obvious next question is: what patents are necessarily infringed in the first place, just because you used React? It's a useful tool, but even if Facebook have successfully acquired relevant US software patents, it's hard to believe there's anything significant in there that had no prior art. GUI programmers have been specifying presentation details declaratively, using templates, and bundling updates for performance since long before the existence of React (or Facebook, for that matter).

tobltobs 11y ago
The obvious problem with this interpretation is that it doesn't matter if a patent contains anything significant. How much cash you have and how long you can endure the uncertaintities which come with a legal confrontation with facebooks lawyers are what matters.
- Silhouette 11y ago
  Your "obvious" problem is based on the premise that whoever has the most money will win a lawsuit in the US. In that case, almost no-one using React needs to worry about this, because either Facebook is going to come after them and they will lose but that could happen regardless of how they act, or Facebook is going to decide they don't want to come after them and it doesn't matter.
  - marcus_holmes 11y ago
    This. I get that there's a few corporates that might have a patent portfolio they'd conceivably want to enforce against Facebook. But for the rest of humanity this is just a non-argument. If FB want to pick a fight with you, you're in a fight whether you use React or not.
    - tobltobs 11y ago
      It's just that with using react you leave your castles gate wide open.

matthewmacleod 11y ago

I'm not completely on board with this argument. In particular, there may not be any patents on React in the first place, and the 'implicit grant' included in the BSD license is legally sketchy at best – AFAIK it has not been tested, which suggests that relying on any BSD licensed software exposes you to legal risk where you do not have an explicit patent license.

guelo 11y ago

This clause is awesome. Software patents are awful and this clause reduces the chances of patent lawsuits.