5 ms·

I feel a lot of this as well. It's deeply troubling, when you attach so much of your self worth to work, and the work erodes you so strongly. What's left? I wi

by RickS 11y ago

I feel a lot of this as well. It's deeply troubling, when you attach so much of your self worth to work, and the work erodes you so strongly. What's left? I wish it were more accepted so that we could sort it out without having to be so drastic. I don't know how to tell my boss "I can't really do this right now. I need at least 2 months. Maybe 10. Dunno." I'm just going to leave, and.... and then what? who knows. When you stop working yourself to the bone you get to... not have health insurance? Wonder how long you can coast before going under? San Francisco, and I imagine most of America, is a tough place to just be. It sucks.

hnal943 11y ago
Well, yeah. Given that you consume resources, there's really no way to just be. You need to be productive. That doesn't mean that you have to write code, just do things that have value for other people.
- xj9 11y ago
  What about writing code in an environment that doesn't want to consume you body and soul? Contemporary corporate culture wants just that: the maximum value, as quickly as possible, for the lowest cost. These are the right goals for a corporation, but the implementation often ignores the basic humanity and inherent weakness of the people they depend on. People need R&R, they need to work at a reasonable pace, in many cases they need a reason to care. Unfortunately, corporations have no incentive to invest in their employees, because they are supposed to be replaceable cogs. I think workers cooperatives are a good solution, but they are far from common. Personally, I'm very happy at the coop[0] I am a member of. I hope they become more common moving forward. [0]: https://www.heropun.ch/ https://www.heropun.ch/
  - tekklloneer 11y ago
    What entails finding/exploring/joining such a co-op? It sounds like a much better concept than a traditional 9-5. Related to the parent: I've mentioned that I want a strict work/life balance, and a more aggressive work/break balance and the retort I've heard sometimes is "accountability". I don't mind working to fix a broken thing during my down time, I just don't want to be actively contributing for greater periods of time. We're incredibly lucky to work in an industry in the us where 3 week vacations are the norm, but I'd vastly prefer 2 weeks paid, 3 months unpaid as the norm (if that makes sense)
  - ACow_Adonis 11y ago
    I'm trying to be helpful here, not an arsehole, and I'm not sure whether its even your website, but some feedback for whoever's website it is: Your website doesn't work for me. I've tried it on firefox and chrome. I'm still not entirely sure who or what you are. I click on home and its just a big black screen: "Work made simple: Learn more". Ok...issues aside with a front page that tells me nothing, i click on learn more... I get a black screen with a grey bar across the top with three motherhood statements in it...none of those link anywhere. Ok...um...end of the line I guess. All right, I'll click on the products tab in the top right: Big black screen which just says: "We're just getting started, but here's what we're doing so far: " And there's nothing there...its just a big black screen. I click finally on contacts (because its literally the last link on the website), and that takes me to...well ok...now I see what looks like two projects in a grey bar at the top you say you're working on, but no links or information available on either...and I'm still not sure who or what you are... There's a second grey bar which has a paragraph of wishy-washy text, with an email address hyperlinked, and I'm still not sure who you are or what you actually do or why I would be contacting you... Aaaand, as far as i can tell, i've just been through the entire website...
    - xj9 11y ago
      Its my coop's website. I'm not offended, I want feedback! I think we have some interesting long-term goals, but we are still trying to figure out who we have to be to get there.
dasil003 11y ago
I'm not saying I'm any good at this, but I think there is definitely a line to toe between rabid night-and-day commitment to a cause and clock-punching apathy. It is possible work really hard and even care deeply, but still keep it detached from your worth as a human being. I know this advice may seem trite, but as far as I can see the alternatives are either a futile struggle to change the world, or self-sabotage. Strategies for this might be work-life balance, meditation/exercise, or even just a psychological disposition might be sufficient for the right person; I'm not sure what works for others, but this is definitely an important framework for my own sanity.
mikekchar 11y ago
At the risk of self-promotion: http://mikekchar.github.io/portfolio/UsefulAndBeneficial/ http://mikekchar.github.io/portfolio/UsefulAndBeneficial/ It may or may not help you. I've shown it to a lot of people and I have to admit that most people don't really connect with it. However, for me it was a pivotal realization that got me out of the grind and I hope it will help you too. At that time I quit my job and spent 8 months writing free software. I didn't know what to do and thought seriously about quitting being a programmer altogether. During those 8 months, I wrote code almost every waking moment and discovered that I loved writing code. What I hated was fighting with people over all the broken stuff at work. And that's when it hit me. My colleagues hated fighting with me over all the broken stuff at work too. That's why I was burning myself out and getting no recognition. They didn't realize that everything was broken and I spent all of my energy trying to convince them. I realized that if I simply did what I enjoyed, writing code, the other people would be happy with me too -- even if the company came crashing down around my ears. So I decided to try it in my next job. Not only were people delighted with me, but they increasingly invited me to fix their other problems (as they realized them). I stopped fighting and started just fixing stuff. I was happy. I've since realized that many people and organizations need help. But if you dive in too much, you get caught up in their craziness. Their life and death struggles become yours -- and you can't do anything about it because it depends on them changing. If you step back and simply lend your strength where it is desired -- allowing them to fail if they are intent in doing so -- you can live a peaceful life. Hope that helps.
- jhou2 11y ago
  Thanks for this bit. It was helpful to me. I was coming to a similar realization as well with my current company and team.
- beidondveiso 11y ago
  Thank you for posting! I am about to quit my startup and plan on writing free software and trying to find myself a bit again (and what to do next). I am not sure if I will come to the same conclusions (and I think thats something I would have to experience first hand), but it sounds very encouraging.
- 11y ago

by RickS 11y ago

hnal943 11y ago

Well, yeah. Given that you consume resources, there's really no way to just be. You need to be productive. That doesn't mean that you have to write code, just do things that have value for other people.

xj9 11y ago
What about writing code in an environment that doesn't want to consume you body and soul? Contemporary corporate culture wants just that: the maximum value, as quickly as possible, for the lowest cost. These are the right goals for a corporation, but the implementation often ignores the basic humanity and inherent weakness of the people they depend on. People need R&R, they need to work at a reasonable pace, in many cases they need a reason to care. Unfortunately, corporations have no incentive to invest in their employees, because they are supposed to be replaceable cogs. I think workers cooperatives are a good solution, but they are far from common. Personally, I'm very happy at the coop[0] I am a member of. I hope they become more common moving forward. [0]: https://www.heropun.ch/ https://www.heropun.ch/
- tekklloneer 11y ago
  What entails finding/exploring/joining such a co-op? It sounds like a much better concept than a traditional 9-5. Related to the parent: I've mentioned that I want a strict work/life balance, and a more aggressive work/break balance and the retort I've heard sometimes is "accountability". I don't mind working to fix a broken thing during my down time, I just don't want to be actively contributing for greater periods of time. We're incredibly lucky to work in an industry in the us where 3 week vacations are the norm, but I'd vastly prefer 2 weeks paid, 3 months unpaid as the norm (if that makes sense)
- ACow_Adonis 11y ago
  I'm trying to be helpful here, not an arsehole, and I'm not sure whether its even your website, but some feedback for whoever's website it is: Your website doesn't work for me. I've tried it on firefox and chrome. I'm still not entirely sure who or what you are. I click on home and its just a big black screen: "Work made simple: Learn more". Ok...issues aside with a front page that tells me nothing, i click on learn more... I get a black screen with a grey bar across the top with three motherhood statements in it...none of those link anywhere. Ok...um...end of the line I guess. All right, I'll click on the products tab in the top right: Big black screen which just says: "We're just getting started, but here's what we're doing so far: " And there's nothing there...its just a big black screen. I click finally on contacts (because its literally the last link on the website), and that takes me to...well ok...now I see what looks like two projects in a grey bar at the top you say you're working on, but no links or information available on either...and I'm still not sure who or what you are... There's a second grey bar which has a paragraph of wishy-washy text, with an email address hyperlinked, and I'm still not sure who you are or what you actually do or why I would be contacting you... Aaaand, as far as i can tell, i've just been through the entire website...
  - xj9 11y ago
    Its my coop's website. I'm not offended, I want feedback! I think we have some interesting long-term goals, but we are still trying to figure out who we have to be to get there.

dasil003 11y ago

I'm not saying I'm any good at this, but I think there is definitely a line to toe between rabid night-and-day commitment to a cause and clock-punching apathy. It is possible work really hard and even care deeply, but still keep it detached from your worth as a human being. I know this advice may seem trite, but as far as I can see the alternatives are either a futile struggle to change the world, or self-sabotage. Strategies for this might be work-life balance, meditation/exercise, or even just a psychological disposition might be sufficient for the right person; I'm not sure what works for others, but this is definitely an important framework for my own sanity.

mikekchar 11y ago

At the risk of self-promotion: http://mikekchar.github.io/portfolio/UsefulAndBeneficial/ http://mikekchar.github.io/portfolio/UsefulAndBeneficial/ It may or may not help you. I've shown it to a lot of people and I have to admit that most people don't really connect with it. However, for me it was a pivotal realization that got me out of the grind and I hope it will help you too. At that time I quit my job and spent 8 months writing free software. I didn't know what to do and thought seriously about quitting being a programmer altogether. During those 8 months, I wrote code almost every waking moment and discovered that I loved writing code. What I hated was fighting with people over all the broken stuff at work. And that's when it hit me. My colleagues hated fighting with me over all the broken stuff at work too. That's why I was burning myself out and getting no recognition. They didn't realize that everything was broken and I spent all of my energy trying to convince them. I realized that if I simply did what I enjoyed, writing code, the other people would be happy with me too -- even if the company came crashing down around my ears. So I decided to try it in my next job. Not only were people delighted with me, but they increasingly invited me to fix their other problems (as they realized them). I stopped fighting and started just fixing stuff. I was happy. I've since realized that many people and organizations need help. But if you dive in too much, you get caught up in their craziness. Their life and death struggles become yours -- and you can't do anything about it because it depends on them changing. If you step back and simply lend your strength where it is desired -- allowing them to fail if they are intent in doing so -- you can live a peaceful life. Hope that helps.

jhou2 11y ago
Thanks for this bit. It was helpful to me. I was coming to a similar realization as well with my current company and team.
beidondveiso 11y ago
Thank you for posting! I am about to quit my startup and plan on writing free software and trying to find myself a bit again (and what to do next). I am not sure if I will come to the same conclusions (and I think thats something I would have to experience first hand), but it sounds very encouraging.
11y ago