4 ms·

> It's easy to build it in a way so that the worst that the software can do is cause it to turn into a "dumb" fridge. If it's so easy, why don't more companies

> It's easy to build it in a way so that the worst that the software can do is cause it to turn into a "dumb" fridge. If it's so easy, why don't more companies do it? Why didn't Nest build their thermostats so that when the battery runs out, it reverts to a "dumb" thermostat instead of turning off your heat? http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/bug-nest-thermostat-turns-heating-off-for-some http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jan/15/bug-nest-t...

Klathmon 11y ago
Honestly, i'm not sure. It's clearly more work to do it that way, as you'd need multiple "layers" of firmware/code which all need to communicate and run on their own, but i personally see that as insurance against the exact situation you are describing. Nest is far from what i'd consider a good IOT company. They are the epitome of vendor lock in, proprietary and buggy code, and shitty support.
- robotmlg 11y ago
  What would you consider a good IOT company?
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - Fr0styMatt88 11y ago
    I'd consider Philips one (specifically whatever part of the company does Hue products; even with their recent base-station changes to only work with their bulbs). I don't think their base station has EVER crashed on me, not once. They made sound architectural decisions for the product as a whole - it's not some bloated Linux thing but it runs FreeRTOS and does only what it needs to. I have one of their push-button kinetic power light switches in my setup and I've forgotten that it isn't an old-school lighting setup most of the time. That's because of another good architectural decision - they had the sense to decide that simple RF code-sending to the base station was good enough for the switch, rather than trying to make the switch into some kind of Wi-Fi connected thing running a TCP/IP and web stack (did I mention the switch needs no battery or external power of any sort?). The system stays out of my way and just works when I want it to, while still allowing me to dig in and add-on cool automation where it's appropriate. The thing I don't get with 'control everything with your smartphone!' is that people don't think about everyday use. It's like the people that design these products don't look at the actual, repeated use cases. Why would I want to pull my phone out of my pocket, unlock it, find the app I need, launch the app, wait for it to connect, hit the buttons I want.... (Even when I'm on Android and I can have an IoT control widget on my homescreen, that's still pulling the phone out, switching it on, unlocking it with my fingerprint, finding the page, hitting the button.... oops I forgot to turn Wi-Fi back on, better do that....) I think IoT is great, but to do a great job at it you need to design the product with that in mind to begin with. The whole architecture of the product has to fit (see again, Hue). Sure, picking an Android tablet is easy, but why would you architect all that complexity? Why not a touchscreen device with a really simple real-time OS that does only what it needs to do? I'm confident that this will all be self-correcting in the end. Consumers and 'the market' are smarter than we give them credit for. Certainly it takes a long time for them to react, but I think that when enough of the public is jaded by 'bad IoT' and the fad phase has passed, the actually good IoT products will survive and those companies that really think about their designs as a whole will be rewarded.
uxp 11y ago
To be fair, most "dumb" thermostats still require an external power source to continue to operate. Very few actually pull operating current from the 24v C wire if it even exists on the given system. If it doesn't, R (the switched 24v power for Heat and Cold signals) isn't guaranteed to continually have current. Only when your Heat is turned on (probably a standard toggle lightswitch on the side of your furnace) will there be current on the Rh line, and only when your AC is enabled (possibly a breaker shunt on the side of your house near the condenser unit in a small box) will there be current on the Rc line. Nest tries to recharge it's battery by trickling the C wire, if available, and if not it will try to charge off of one of the R wires, either during normal operation, or it will try and "pulse" the heat signal to pull a little bit of current to keep going. Thermostats were designed at a time where they didn't even consume any electricity on their own. We're trying to retrofit computers into signaling system, not a circuit.
- aidenn0 11y ago
  Really? Most thermostats I've seen are a bimetallic strip with either a magnet or a mercury switch for hysteresis.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
    Can you even buy those anymore? The GP is right: most new thermostats don't take power from the 24VAC line. That surprised me when my heat wouldn't come on one morning because the battery was too weak to pull in the relay for more than a few seconds. That's what I get for ignoring the "low battery" warning! All my previous electronic thermostats only used the battery as a backup. In any case, are you really saying that using a toxic metal (mercury), or an imprecise bimetallic strip is really an improvement over a simple $10 electronic thermostat?
    - aidenn0 11y ago
      I guess when I think of a "dumb" thermostat I think non-electronic. None of the 5 places I've lived in as an adult has had an electronic thermostat.

Klathmon 11y ago

Honestly, i'm not sure. It's clearly more work to do it that way, as you'd need multiple "layers" of firmware/code which all need to communicate and run on their own, but i personally see that as insurance against the exact situation you are describing. Nest is far from what i'd consider a good IOT company. They are the epitome of vendor lock in, proprietary and buggy code, and shitty support.

robotmlg 11y ago
What would you consider a good IOT company?
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- Fr0styMatt88 11y ago
  I'd consider Philips one (specifically whatever part of the company does Hue products; even with their recent base-station changes to only work with their bulbs). I don't think their base station has EVER crashed on me, not once. They made sound architectural decisions for the product as a whole - it's not some bloated Linux thing but it runs FreeRTOS and does only what it needs to. I have one of their push-button kinetic power light switches in my setup and I've forgotten that it isn't an old-school lighting setup most of the time. That's because of another good architectural decision - they had the sense to decide that simple RF code-sending to the base station was good enough for the switch, rather than trying to make the switch into some kind of Wi-Fi connected thing running a TCP/IP and web stack (did I mention the switch needs no battery or external power of any sort?). The system stays out of my way and just works when I want it to, while still allowing me to dig in and add-on cool automation where it's appropriate. The thing I don't get with 'control everything with your smartphone!' is that people don't think about everyday use. It's like the people that design these products don't look at the actual, repeated use cases. Why would I want to pull my phone out of my pocket, unlock it, find the app I need, launch the app, wait for it to connect, hit the buttons I want.... (Even when I'm on Android and I can have an IoT control widget on my homescreen, that's still pulling the phone out, switching it on, unlocking it with my fingerprint, finding the page, hitting the button.... oops I forgot to turn Wi-Fi back on, better do that....) I think IoT is great, but to do a great job at it you need to design the product with that in mind to begin with. The whole architecture of the product has to fit (see again, Hue). Sure, picking an Android tablet is easy, but why would you architect all that complexity? Why not a touchscreen device with a really simple real-time OS that does only what it needs to do? I'm confident that this will all be self-correcting in the end. Consumers and 'the market' are smarter than we give them credit for. Certainly it takes a long time for them to react, but I think that when enough of the public is jaded by 'bad IoT' and the fad phase has passed, the actually good IoT products will survive and those companies that really think about their designs as a whole will be rewarded.

uxp 11y ago

To be fair, most "dumb" thermostats still require an external power source to continue to operate. Very few actually pull operating current from the 24v C wire if it even exists on the given system. If it doesn't, R (the switched 24v power for Heat and Cold signals) isn't guaranteed to continually have current. Only when your Heat is turned on (probably a standard toggle lightswitch on the side of your furnace) will there be current on the Rh line, and only when your AC is enabled (possibly a breaker shunt on the side of your house near the condenser unit in a small box) will there be current on the Rc line. Nest tries to recharge it's battery by trickling the C wire, if available, and if not it will try to charge off of one of the R wires, either during normal operation, or it will try and "pulse" the heat signal to pull a little bit of current to keep going. Thermostats were designed at a time where they didn't even consume any electricity on their own. We're trying to retrofit computers into signaling system, not a circuit.

aidenn0 11y ago
Really? Most thermostats I've seen are a bimetallic strip with either a magnet or a mercury switch for hysteresis.
- HeyLaughingBoy 11y ago
  Can you even buy those anymore? The GP is right: most new thermostats don't take power from the 24VAC line. That surprised me when my heat wouldn't come on one morning because the battery was too weak to pull in the relay for more than a few seconds. That's what I get for ignoring the "low battery" warning! All my previous electronic thermostats only used the battery as a backup. In any case, are you really saying that using a toxic metal (mercury), or an imprecise bimetallic strip is really an improvement over a simple $10 electronic thermostat?
  - aidenn0 11y ago
    I guess when I think of a "dumb" thermostat I think non-electronic. None of the 5 places I've lived in as an adult has had an electronic thermostat.