> For that last 20%, they just get in the way and cause more problems than they solve. This is why my preferred measure of an ORM is how effectively one can wr

> For that last 20%, they just get in the way and cause more problems than they solve. This is why my preferred measure of an ORM is how effectively one can write your own SQL with it, and what you get out from your database call when you do so (do you still get "real" business objects or just key-value pairs?) That said, I've found you can trick even a rather recalcitrant framework into making sophisticated queries by setting up a database view and tell your ORM that the view is just another table...