11 ms·

The problem with AirBnB is that they want you to scan your id card and send it over the internet. Which is illegal here in Germany. I would not use a company th

The problem with AirBnB is that they want you to scan your id card and send it over the internet. Which is illegal here in Germany. I would not use a company that wants me to do illegal things in the first place. Additionally they want access to your Facebook account, which I find offensive as well. I travel a lot in Europe. Since I prefer to stay in apartments over staying in hotel rooms, my approach is to look up local apartment rental sites. Usually I find good deals this way. I only stay in hotels if I absolutely must. Apartments are so much nicer.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
ucaetano 11y ago
Don't think it's illegal, Number26 (a german bank startup) does it for ID verification.
- realityking 11y ago
  It's illegal to make copies of the ID card unless required by law. Opening a bank account is one of these things were the law requires a copy of the ID card due to money laundering legislation.
  - asift 11y ago
    I find that law even more ridiculous given those requirements. Making it illegal to do X unless they force you to do X undermines almost all arguments for criminalizing X.
    - rietta 11y ago
      Not entirely. The companies that must collect presumably have better security safeguards than those just wanting it just because it's easy or customary. I have a client that must collect and store drivers license copies for 2 years by state law. The system encrypts with GnuPG, such that only an offline private key stored on a crypto smart card can decrypt, and the encrypted image into a cloud storage bucket with an expiration date. Unless they get a spoliation order because the police come knocking no one ever sees the data. After 2 years, the file auto deletes and a record is left indicating that the record was "deleted in the ordinary course of business." The company does not really want to do all of this, but its required by law and good infosec practices. Handling data breach material is expensive.
  - ucaetano 11y ago
    Thanks for the clarification!
- neuigkeiten 11y ago
  Well, some startups might try to fuck with the law. German courts stick to it though: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Gericht-Personalausweise-duerfen-nicht-eingescannt-und-gespeichert-werden-2057808.html http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Gericht-Personalauswe...
- alemhnan 11y ago
  I recently applied for it but they didn't ask me to send ID via email. They used idnow (http://www.idnow.eu/ http://www.idnow.eu/). You get a real operator via website (or even mobile) asking some questions and taking a photo of you and your passport. I was actually surprised as it worked quite seamlessly.
  - ucaetano 11y ago
    Yes, I went through the same, but wouldn't "taking a photo of your passport be the same as "scan your id card and send it over the internet" which OP claims is illegal?
jp555 11y ago
Do faxes in Germany have their own super-secure network? Or is it illegal to fax identifying information as well? Actually I would not be surprised that the old way was legal and any new way that threatens incumbents is illegal. This seems a fundamental dysfunction of Europe in general.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
charlesdm 11y ago
"Illegal" is relative in this case. The law isn't a set of divine rules to live by (you're probably breaking a few laws by accident every day), it's more of a correction mechanism for abuse. That, and every country has weird quirky laws on certain matters. Just use common sense. That said, you should be careful with your ID. But, I personally wouldn't mind verifying my ID with Airbnb (last I checked, they used specific verification software)
- eveningcoffee 11y ago
  And this law is very likely in place to avoid situations what Airbnb has created. Namely Airbnb has created a database of (very likely high quality) copies of ID cards that when leaked could be used for identity theft in similar places where digital photographic copies of ID cards over the Internet are accepted as proof of identity. To be more clear - digital photographic copy of a ID card can not be considered as a proof of the identity because it only shows that the person who is providing this information had either access to the copy itself or had limited time to make a copy in real life.
  - robk 11y ago
    How do you know they save them? What if they just verify and discard?
    - eveningcoffee 11y ago
      I would rather ask that how do I know that they actually do not keep this information and actually properly destroy it.
  - charlesdm 11y ago
    I think, when I verified my ID a couple of years ago, they used a sort of middleware to analyse + verify the ID. If I remember right, they said they didn't actually store the ID (i.e. the underlying image was discarded once verified) Edit: they use Jumio Netverify - http://www.jumio.com/ http://www.jumio.com/
  - 11y ago
maelito 11y ago
The Facebook verification is to me more problematic than the Id...
- zeeZ 11y ago
  When I tried to sign up through Google they wanted access to my Google Drive for verification. You can have lengthy arguments about the sanity of giving Google access to 8 years worth of random files, documents and photos alone, but then give a third party access to all that just for "verification"?
ciaranm 11y ago
This is super common practice in the UK, at least in some industries (e.g. Gambling). Most online bookmakers & exchanges will require age-verification before they let you place a stake. I've had similar experiences ordering alcohol online (though only from smaller retailers, and usually only for a first purchase).
yomly 11y ago
As an AirBnB host I'm not all that cool with letting out my apartment for a day to someone who won't share some form of proof of identity. As an engineer I get the privacy concerns so I'm split on which way I sit on this fence but I trust in a large tech company like AirBnB to get security right - so on balance the short term risks of someone abusing my flat outweigh my long term risks of someone getting my passport data.
- atirip 11y ago
  Why the identity? Insurance pays.
  - mc32 11y ago
    Because insurance is a hassle? Who wants to go through the process of being righted after being wronged? Getting wronged to be reimbursed is not the business model most renters are seeking when they put up a property on AB&B.
    - atirip 11y ago
      So what do you prefer? Hunting them down and beating them up with your own fists? Hire some tough guys? Is that really easier? But i was really referencing AirBnB insurance....
      - yomly 11y ago
        Identity provides deterrence from things ever reaching that state. Having your passport or ID saved would make you think twice about committing some kind of crime
      - mc32 11y ago
        Ok let's say you had a delivery business and have all the insurance necessary. You're saying you're equally likely to use a driver who has a history of careless driving as you would a driver who has a history of driving safely because you're covered by insurance. I'm claiming people are seeking avoidance. People would rather have the deterrent effect, so that they might avoid the hassles of going through claims and then waiting for things to be righted.
tobias3 11y ago
This could be solved with the eID feature of German identity cards, I guess. Problem is many disable it, do not have a card reader and many smartphones are not compatible.
- thesimon 11y ago
  Could also be solved by using the passport instead of the identity card. The NFC-feature can't be disabled and most people have NFC smartphones (well, at least the people who are using AirBnB)

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

ucaetano 11y ago

Don't think it's illegal, Number26 (a german bank startup) does it for ID verification.

realityking 11y ago
It's illegal to make copies of the ID card unless required by law. Opening a bank account is one of these things were the law requires a copy of the ID card due to money laundering legislation.
- asift 11y ago
  I find that law even more ridiculous given those requirements. Making it illegal to do X unless they force you to do X undermines almost all arguments for criminalizing X.
  - rietta 11y ago
    Not entirely. The companies that must collect presumably have better security safeguards than those just wanting it just because it's easy or customary. I have a client that must collect and store drivers license copies for 2 years by state law. The system encrypts with GnuPG, such that only an offline private key stored on a crypto smart card can decrypt, and the encrypted image into a cloud storage bucket with an expiration date. Unless they get a spoliation order because the police come knocking no one ever sees the data. After 2 years, the file auto deletes and a record is left indicating that the record was "deleted in the ordinary course of business." The company does not really want to do all of this, but its required by law and good infosec practices. Handling data breach material is expensive.
- ucaetano 11y ago
  Thanks for the clarification!
neuigkeiten 11y ago
Well, some startups might try to fuck with the law. German courts stick to it though: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Gericht-Personalausweise-duerfen-nicht-eingescannt-und-gespeichert-werden-2057808.html http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Gericht-Personalauswe...
alemhnan 11y ago
I recently applied for it but they didn't ask me to send ID via email. They used idnow (http://www.idnow.eu/ http://www.idnow.eu/). You get a real operator via website (or even mobile) asking some questions and taking a photo of you and your passport. I was actually surprised as it worked quite seamlessly.
- ucaetano 11y ago
  Yes, I went through the same, but wouldn't "taking a photo of your passport be the same as "scan your id card and send it over the internet" which OP claims is illegal?

jp555 11y ago

Do faxes in Germany have their own super-secure network? Or is it illegal to fax identifying information as well? Actually I would not be surprised that the old way was legal and any new way that threatens incumbents is illegal. This seems a fundamental dysfunction of Europe in general.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

charlesdm 11y ago

"Illegal" is relative in this case. The law isn't a set of divine rules to live by (you're probably breaking a few laws by accident every day), it's more of a correction mechanism for abuse. That, and every country has weird quirky laws on certain matters. Just use common sense. That said, you should be careful with your ID. But, I personally wouldn't mind verifying my ID with Airbnb (last I checked, they used specific verification software)

eveningcoffee 11y ago
And this law is very likely in place to avoid situations what Airbnb has created. Namely Airbnb has created a database of (very likely high quality) copies of ID cards that when leaked could be used for identity theft in similar places where digital photographic copies of ID cards over the Internet are accepted as proof of identity. To be more clear - digital photographic copy of a ID card can not be considered as a proof of the identity because it only shows that the person who is providing this information had either access to the copy itself or had limited time to make a copy in real life.
- robk 11y ago
  How do you know they save them? What if they just verify and discard?
  - eveningcoffee 11y ago
    I would rather ask that how do I know that they actually do not keep this information and actually properly destroy it.
- charlesdm 11y ago
  I think, when I verified my ID a couple of years ago, they used a sort of middleware to analyse + verify the ID. If I remember right, they said they didn't actually store the ID (i.e. the underlying image was discarded once verified) Edit: they use Jumio Netverify - http://www.jumio.com/ http://www.jumio.com/
- 11y ago

maelito 11y ago

The Facebook verification is to me more problematic than the Id...

zeeZ 11y ago
When I tried to sign up through Google they wanted access to my Google Drive for verification. You can have lengthy arguments about the sanity of giving Google access to 8 years worth of random files, documents and photos alone, but then give a third party access to all that just for "verification"?

ciaranm 11y ago

This is super common practice in the UK, at least in some industries (e.g. Gambling). Most online bookmakers & exchanges will require age-verification before they let you place a stake. I've had similar experiences ordering alcohol online (though only from smaller retailers, and usually only for a first purchase).

yomly 11y ago

As an AirBnB host I'm not all that cool with letting out my apartment for a day to someone who won't share some form of proof of identity. As an engineer I get the privacy concerns so I'm split on which way I sit on this fence but I trust in a large tech company like AirBnB to get security right - so on balance the short term risks of someone abusing my flat outweigh my long term risks of someone getting my passport data.

atirip 11y ago
Why the identity? Insurance pays.
- mc32 11y ago
  Because insurance is a hassle? Who wants to go through the process of being righted after being wronged? Getting wronged to be reimbursed is not the business model most renters are seeking when they put up a property on AB&B.
  - atirip 11y ago
    So what do you prefer? Hunting them down and beating them up with your own fists? Hire some tough guys? Is that really easier? But i was really referencing AirBnB insurance....
    - yomly 11y ago
      Identity provides deterrence from things ever reaching that state. Having your passport or ID saved would make you think twice about committing some kind of crime
    - mc32 11y ago
      Ok let's say you had a delivery business and have all the insurance necessary. You're saying you're equally likely to use a driver who has a history of careless driving as you would a driver who has a history of driving safely because you're covered by insurance. I'm claiming people are seeking avoidance. People would rather have the deterrent effect, so that they might avoid the hassles of going through claims and then waiting for things to be righted.

tobias3 11y ago

This could be solved with the eID feature of German identity cards, I guess. Problem is many disable it, do not have a card reader and many smartphones are not compatible.

thesimon 11y ago
Could also be solved by using the passport instead of the identity card. The NFC-feature can't be disabled and most people have NFC smartphones (well, at least the people who are using AirBnB)