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Outcomes vary greatly by school, zip code, and socio-economic class. Are children in the wrong zip code just lazy? Why do the children in poor families perform

Outcomes vary greatly by school, zip code, and socio-economic class. Are children in the wrong zip code just lazy? Why do the children in poor families perform so much worse than in rich families? It doesn't, by any measure, appear to be a consequence of the children's efforts.

moultano 11y ago
>It doesn't, by any measure, appear to be a consequence of the children's efforts. What basis do you have for saying that?
- ryandrake 11y ago
  The best ranked public schools are consistently in the richest neighborhoods, and the worst ranked ones are consistently in the poorest neighborhoods. I don't think this can be disputed. So, what's more likely? 1. Rich neighborhoods result in well-funded schools with the resources to provide a superior education, better than the not-well-funded schools that are in poor neighborhoods. Or 2. A superior education comes from "children's efforts" and kids that put in a lot of effort coincidentally all live in the same school districts, which also coincidentally are located in the richest neighborhoods?
  - ars 11y ago
    Or 3. The humans who are smarter become richer and have children who are also smarter (and thus do better in school).
  - moultano 11y ago
    Why would you think that similar people living near each other is the result of a coincidence? Abject poverty is likely to have way more impact on kids performance in school than any level of school funding. Whether you want to lump that in with "children's efforts" or not, it's certainly exogenous to the school.
  - sethammons 11y ago
    It has more to do with parent involvement and support, and after that, community support. If the family does not value education, then the likely kids wont. Poverty in and of itself plays a role. Poorer families have other stressors that distract from school, and poorer families tend to not know the benefit of education (they may have been told education is a ticket out of poverty, but few see it happen). And it spreads out of the home. In poverty stricken areas, the majority of peers will shun those who are academically excellent as some kind of sell out. There have been successful schools in poor areas like Harlem when the majority of parents and students care about their education. On the flip side, excellent schools pull in families that value school performance and those families support and push the students. Annecdata: I grew up very poor and made it well into the middle class, it can be done, but the cards are stacked against you.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
InclinedPlane 11y ago
The problem is multi-fold. If you have a bunch of low quality high schools pumping out borderline illiterate "graduates" just due to dumb bureaucratic inertia and politics then that devalues the high school diploma as a credential (which we've certainly seen). Now we have a lot of HS graduates who can't get a non-minimum wage job without going on to college, and all the enormous problems we've witnessed that causing.
j1o1h1n 11y ago
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151216082154.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151216082154.h... "the influence of genes on intelligence varies according to people's social class in the US, but not in Western Europe or Australia. " "That is, the relatively robust healthcare and social-welfare programs in Western Europe and Australia may buffer some of the negative environmental effects typically associated with poverty."
- hackuser 11y ago
  One reason those studies are so controversial is the fear that people will horribly misapply them. Their fears are confirmed regularly, even among regularly sophisticated audiences such as HN. What you write is not applicable, for many reasons.
JakeAl 11y ago
> "Why do the children in poor families perform so much worse than in rich families?" Coping skills and resources. Reminds me of Privilege and inequality in Silicon Valley https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/privilege-and-inequality-in-silicon-valley-92d455b66860#.dc71ao27t https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/privilege-and-inequa...

moultano 11y ago

>It doesn't, by any measure, appear to be a consequence of the children's efforts. What basis do you have for saying that?

ryandrake 11y ago
The best ranked public schools are consistently in the richest neighborhoods, and the worst ranked ones are consistently in the poorest neighborhoods. I don't think this can be disputed. So, what's more likely? 1. Rich neighborhoods result in well-funded schools with the resources to provide a superior education, better than the not-well-funded schools that are in poor neighborhoods. Or 2. A superior education comes from "children's efforts" and kids that put in a lot of effort coincidentally all live in the same school districts, which also coincidentally are located in the richest neighborhoods?
- ars 11y ago
  Or 3. The humans who are smarter become richer and have children who are also smarter (and thus do better in school).
- moultano 11y ago
  Why would you think that similar people living near each other is the result of a coincidence? Abject poverty is likely to have way more impact on kids performance in school than any level of school funding. Whether you want to lump that in with "children's efforts" or not, it's certainly exogenous to the school.
- sethammons 11y ago
  It has more to do with parent involvement and support, and after that, community support. If the family does not value education, then the likely kids wont. Poverty in and of itself plays a role. Poorer families have other stressors that distract from school, and poorer families tend to not know the benefit of education (they may have been told education is a ticket out of poverty, but few see it happen). And it spreads out of the home. In poverty stricken areas, the majority of peers will shun those who are academically excellent as some kind of sell out. There have been successful schools in poor areas like Harlem when the majority of parents and students care about their education. On the flip side, excellent schools pull in families that value school performance and those families support and push the students. Annecdata: I grew up very poor and made it well into the middle class, it can be done, but the cards are stacked against you.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

InclinedPlane 11y ago

The problem is multi-fold. If you have a bunch of low quality high schools pumping out borderline illiterate "graduates" just due to dumb bureaucratic inertia and politics then that devalues the high school diploma as a credential (which we've certainly seen). Now we have a lot of HS graduates who can't get a non-minimum wage job without going on to college, and all the enormous problems we've witnessed that causing.

j1o1h1n 11y ago

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151216082154.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/12/151216082154.h... "the influence of genes on intelligence varies according to people's social class in the US, but not in Western Europe or Australia. " "That is, the relatively robust healthcare and social-welfare programs in Western Europe and Australia may buffer some of the negative environmental effects typically associated with poverty."

hackuser 11y ago
One reason those studies are so controversial is the fear that people will horribly misapply them. Their fears are confirmed regularly, even among regularly sophisticated audiences such as HN. What you write is not applicable, for many reasons.

JakeAl 11y ago

> "Why do the children in poor families perform so much worse than in rich families?" Coping skills and resources. Reminds me of Privilege and inequality in Silicon Valley https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/privilege-and-inequality-in-silicon-valley-92d455b66860#.dc71ao27t https://medium.com/tech-diversity-files/privilege-and-inequa...