4 ms·

It looks like Neil Peart uses a click track on Stick it out or he could just be rock solid. I wonder how well Tico Torres and Billy Cobham (great drummers and

It looks like Neil Peart uses a click track on Stick it out or he could just be rock solid. I wonder how well Tico Torres and Billy Cobham (great drummers and time-keepers) backed tracks fare, especially one from the 80's and early 90's when computer editors were less common.

ZeroGravitas 17y ago
There's a link in the article to a webapp that lets you answer these questions yourself. A random track by Billy Cobham doesn't look too solid (not that "solid" is necessarily a good thing): http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRMIPXK123E858CD8C&artist=Billy+Cobham&title=110.+Lunarputians http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRMIPXK123E858CD8C&#... A quick click through also suggests that Bon Jovi tracks are click-tracked. It's worth bearing in mind that click tracks have been around since the early 20th century, none of this requires computers, just headphones, though using computers for editing means you get an extra benefit from click-tracks (cut'n'paste with consistent beat) which might push more people towards them.
- wgj 17y ago
  You just said a lot of what I was thinking. Metronomes of course, have been around forever. As early as the 70's a lot of bands started syncing to an electronic source. Especially the prog bands, with excellent drummers, who were versatile enough to sync at will to the arpeggiators on analog synths. And even those arpeggiators often had tempo drift due to the analog electronics. I looked in the archive for this article -- an amazing collection of data by the way -- and found U2 tracks with tempo variations all over the map: http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRKYQTC123E85932E2&artist=U2&title=04+-+Bullet+The+Blue+Sky http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRKYQTC123E85932E2&#... http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRZFYJM123E85816BE&artist=U2&title=13.+Pride http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRZFYJM123E85816BE&#... And then others, just a year or two earlier in their career, more "machine"-like: http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRYMXDV123E8593F96&artist=U2&title=03.+Seconds http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRYMXDV123E8593F96&#... http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRJTTTN123E8593796&artist=U2&title=11+Sunday+Bloody+Sunday http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRJTTTN123E8593796&#... This project has created some amazing data, but I don't agree with all the conclusions at face value. Some of the stuff that is labeled as too machine-like, is well within the discipline of a lot of drummers. Meanwhile modern click tracks can be easily programmed to speed up and slow down throughout a track. In fact, it's done all the time. EDIT: One other thing, some of the most interesting intentional tempo variations occur in the cycle of measures, phrases, and sections. The data presented here, only measured in seconds, doesn't track that relationship which would be the most musically interesting thing. It would be a good experiment to listen to some of these tracks with a prompt following the timeline in real time.
kree10 17y ago
The most interesting results for me are Charlie Watts'. Of the Rolling Stones' explicitly dance-oriented tracks from the 70s, "Hot Stuff" and "Miss You" are 87%, and "Shattered" is 85%. I read this as being way too loose to have had machine help, but way steadier than just about any human drummer.
zefhous 17y ago
It's also important to consider in any given song if they were trying to stay exactly steady. How much fluidity of tempo is intentional? It's a shame that most music these days doesn't even consider using changing tempo as a tool. Music is all about contrast. Classical music and jazz embrace tempo as a tool of contrast, but we've mostly lost that in popular recorded music. The great jazz drummers knew exactly what they were doing. Here's a great example: (Harvey Mason on drums) http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRTGDWN125488885AB&artist=Herbie+Hancock&title=Chameleon http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRTGDWN125488885AB&#... This chart looks pretty crazy at first, but if you are familiar with the music it makes so much sense. I believe that they (the entire band) knew exactly what was happening with the tempo throughout the entire 15 minute song.

ZeroGravitas 17y ago

There's a link in the article to a webapp that lets you answer these questions yourself. A random track by Billy Cobham doesn't look too solid (not that "solid" is necessarily a good thing): http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRMIPXK123E858CD8C&artist=Billy+Cobham&title=110.+Lunarputians http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRMIPXK123E858CD8C&#... A quick click through also suggests that Bon Jovi tracks are click-tracked. It's worth bearing in mind that click tracks have been around since the early 20th century, none of this requires computers, just headphones, though using computers for editing means you get an extra benefit from click-tracks (cut'n'paste with consistent beat) which might push more people towards them.

wgj 17y ago
You just said a lot of what I was thinking. Metronomes of course, have been around forever. As early as the 70's a lot of bands started syncing to an electronic source. Especially the prog bands, with excellent drummers, who were versatile enough to sync at will to the arpeggiators on analog synths. And even those arpeggiators often had tempo drift due to the analog electronics. I looked in the archive for this article -- an amazing collection of data by the way -- and found U2 tracks with tempo variations all over the map: http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRKYQTC123E85932E2&artist=U2&title=04+-+Bullet+The+Blue+Sky http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRKYQTC123E85932E2&#... http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRZFYJM123E85816BE&artist=U2&title=13.+Pride http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRZFYJM123E85816BE&#... And then others, just a year or two earlier in their career, more "machine"-like: http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRYMXDV123E8593F96&artist=U2&title=03.+Seconds http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRYMXDV123E8593F96&#... http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRJTTTN123E8593796&artist=U2&title=11+Sunday+Bloody+Sunday http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRJTTTN123E8593796&#... This project has created some amazing data, but I don't agree with all the conclusions at face value. Some of the stuff that is labeled as too machine-like, is well within the discipline of a lot of drummers. Meanwhile modern click tracks can be easily programmed to speed up and slow down throughout a track. In fact, it's done all the time. EDIT: One other thing, some of the most interesting intentional tempo variations occur in the cycle of measures, phrases, and sections. The data presented here, only measured in seconds, doesn't track that relationship which would be the most musically interesting thing. It would be a good experiment to listen to some of these tracks with a prompt following the timeline in real time.

kree10 17y ago

The most interesting results for me are Charlie Watts'. Of the Rolling Stones' explicitly dance-oriented tracks from the 70s, "Hot Stuff" and "Miss You" are 87%, and "Shattered" is 85%. I read this as being way too loose to have had machine help, but way steadier than just about any human drummer.

zefhous 17y ago

It's also important to consider in any given song if they were trying to stay exactly steady. How much fluidity of tempo is intentional? It's a shame that most music these days doesn't even consider using changing tempo as a tool. Music is all about contrast. Classical music and jazz embrace tempo as a tool of contrast, but we've mostly lost that in popular recorded music. The great jazz drummers knew exactly what they were doing. Here's a great example: (Harvey Mason on drums) http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRTGDWN125488885AB&artist=Herbie+Hancock&title=Chameleon http://labs.echonest.com/click/?trackId=TRTGDWN125488885AB&#... This chart looks pretty crazy at first, but if you are familiar with the music it makes so much sense. I believe that they (the entire band) knew exactly what was happening with the tempo throughout the entire 15 minute song.