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Is it just me, or have some of the comments here missed the point of this entirely? This isn't about MVP or Lean Product Dev. It's about doing the things that

Is it just me, or have some of the comments here missed the point of this entirely? This isn't about MVP or Lean Product Dev. It's about doing the things that are "worth doing". And about doing them yourself, instead of outsourcing them to someone else. Take responsibility for doing the things that are difficult but worth doing. Things that people outsource: Gym - people outsource their Gym attendance to "the experts", Personal Trainers. Their health - to "the professionals", be those Doctors, vitamin salesmen, or chiropractors. Music - to professional musicians.

froo 11y ago
In respect to outsourcing our health to doctors, that is for very good reasons. People are shown to be completely deficient when trying to look out for themselves in this regard.
- skybrian 11y ago
  A doctor can't keep you out of dangerous situations that are hazardous to your health. They can't exercise or watch your weight or quit smoking or take your medicine for you. They aren't there to notice the first symptoms of a disease. And you'll get worse results if you don't describe your symptoms accurately. Of course they'll still do the best they can for people who don't do any of these things, but people who take care of themselves (or have other people - amateurs - to advocate for them) are going to get better use out of the medical system.
- jacobr1 11y ago
  You still need to take overall ownership. Get second opinions. Do some research on use that not as the basis of making some sort of self diagnoses, but as to have a frank discourse with your doctor on your condition. Prevent the need for acute treatments by taking preventative measures that have broad scientific consensus (good diet, exercise, safety equipment, etc...). Do you have a living will and advance directives? Check to see if generic prescriptions would save you money. Proactively ask about different drug formulation if you anticipate or identify side-effects. Get justification for suggested remedies. Ensure your records are transferred or up to date when changing providers. Proactively inform your doctor of family history or environmental conditions regardless of any relevancy you expect - let them make the call but give them all the data. Research providers and providers networks, not just for expertise, which is really hard to judge, but for things like: If I call on the weekend who picks up? Your GP on her mobile? Whoever is on-call? A nurse? A referral service from the local hospital? It is wise to outsource expertise you don't have, but not management of that expertise if you can avoid it.
- joeclark77 11y ago
  For an alternative view, read Nassim Nicholas Taleb's "Antifragile" where he writes about iatrogenics.
- mindcrime 11y ago
  People are shown to be completely deficient when trying to look out for themselves in this regard. jacobr1 is completely right thought, YOU have to take ownership of your health situation. No one can do that for you. Your doctor has hundreds of patients to think about, and only so much cognitive energy available to burn. How much time per month does he/she spend thinking about you specifically? And note that your GP/PCP is likely not up to date on all of the cutting edge research coming down the pike. I'm sure they take their continuing education credits as required by the AMA or whatever, and some probably read a few journal articles and what-not, especially in an area of particular interest. But if you have some uncommon condition, do you think your doctor is on pubmed all day researching every study published on your condition, looking for that one extra bit of knowledge that might make a huge difference. Nah, they're playing golf. Or playing with their kids. Or any of the myriad of things normal people do when they aren't working. And what if you have, FSM forbid, two (or more) doctors. Maybe you have a GP and a cardiologist or an endocrinologist you see. Who's responsible for noticing and directing attention to conflicting instructions between the two? Who's responsible for making sure each knows about all the drugs you're prescribed by the other? Etc? Yeah, you are. Of course lay people shouldn't try to be their own doctor, but saying that you have to take responsibility for your health care is totally accurate.
seizethecheese 11y ago
Yes, absolutely. HN has a natural tendency to make everything about startups. Where this does overlap is the passage about child-rearing which posits that amateurs are more suited than professionals due to the breadth of skills necessary. This correlates nicely with startups, it seems, where being able to do a lot of things "badly" is more important than doing a few things "well." Foxes vs. hedgehogs.
zookatron 11y ago
I suppose the real question is then "How do we decide what is 'worth doing' ourselves?" I think it's fair to say that abolishing all division of labor doesn't make much sense. So what makes some activities different such that they should not be subject to division of labor? Outsourcing work to personal trainers, doctors, and musicians seems like a very good idea to me.
- meric 11y ago
  Let's say you got a date with a girl. Instead of a date you could have been programming making $100 per hour instead. The date costs you money. Would you outsource the date to your friend who will go in your stead with the girl, so you can be more productive? No way, the date is worth going in and of itself. Same logic with raising children. You're going to to look back on the experience with nothing but fondness. The experience of raising your child was valuable in and of itself. Life is not about maximising productivity, you know.
  - zookatron 11y ago
    I don't think your example of dating is a very good one. You're changing the functional nature of the date by having someone else go on it. That's like saying you can't outsource hair-cutting to a barber because it would be equivalent of telling your friend to go cut his hair for you. Clearly you need to be participatory in some degree for the activity to retain it's functionality, but that doesn't mean you can't outsource the hard parts to someone else and have everyone be better off. (Maybe it's unrealistic, but personally I think we do need a bit more outsourcing in dating. We don't need to have everyone muddle through it by themselves, we can have skilled people help educate and guide us in how to find healthy meaningful relationships.) And honestly, I simply can't help disagreeing with the idea that everyone should raise children themselves, just because we will "look back on it with fondness". That seems to me to be the equivalent of saying (pardon the awful analogy) that people should kidnap women off the street and rape them because they find the experience "pleasurable". The way I see it is that by raising a child you are forcing your will upon them, they did not ask or consent to it and have no say in how it is done. And yet, child raising must be done somehow, and therefore you have a serious responsibility to try to ensure that it is done as well as it possibly can. You have no right to force poor parenting onto a child simply because you had a "nice experience". I realize my views on this may be a bit unusual, but I think it's worth considering.
superuser2 11y ago
>Gym - people outsource their Gym attendance to "the experts", Personal Trainers. Um, what? Your personal trainer doesn't go to the gym in your stead, they advise on how best to use your time there.
- azdle 11y ago
  In this case it's more about where you get the knowledge. To parallel the motherhood example FTA: > She does what she does not because she is going to be paid for her services and not because she is the most highly skilled, but because she wants to do it. And she does “the things worth doing,” which are the things closest and most sacred to all of humanity – nurturing a baby, teaching a child the first things, and, in fact, all things. You're not doing the exercises that are being chosen by the expert who is telling you what to do because you're paying them, you're doing the exercises you want to do purely out of self-interest.
- linhchi 11y ago
  But the fact that having a personal trainer improves things a lot. For example having a psychologist. She doesn't do anything, she just makes comments.
  - afshin 11y ago
    Prosecutors and defense attorneys also don't "do anything" except just "make comments". For that matter, neither do presidents or professors.
- xerophyte12932 11y ago
  I think he meant "you shouldn't skip gym just because you don't have a trainer. Gym is worth doing, so it's even worth doing badly (without a trainer)"
  - drewrv 11y ago
    I agree with this idea but if you work out badly enough you can seriously injure yourself.
r0fls 11y ago
While this isn't about MVPs or programming, this is Hacker News, so it's destined to be interpreted in that light once once posted here. I sympathize with your overall point, but reinterpretation contributes to timelessness.
- armenarmen 11y ago
  > reinterpretation contributes to timelessness I really enjoy that turn of phrase
  - RyanMcGreal 11y ago
    In the United States, the recent legal trend toward strict originalism in interpreting the Constitution has created a widening disconnect between what was written in the late 18th and early 19th centuries and what the US needs today. This dogmatic refusal to reinterpret the Second Amendment, in particular, has created a profoundly bizarre (to this Canadian) situation in which the US has a rate of gun death - not just murder, but also suicide and accidental shooting - that has no comparison anywhere else in the developed world.
ljk 11y ago
imo stuff like gardening, landscaping, training a pet also falls under this category!
pjc50 11y ago
As a poster points out below, as originally written by Chesterton, this is "about" opposing the education of women in order that they might remain angelically primitive and unspoilt in their leisure activities. It is absolutely not about taking things like the gym seriously. Chesterton would argue for physical leisure (for men), but only in a fundamentally amateur fashion. Cricket on the village green, "jumpers for goalposts" football, that kind of thing. It's very English (upper class) and not at all Californian. (Chesterton was a tremendous writer, one of the greats of the English language, but should not be taken as a guide to living one's life in the present day without a pinch of salt)
jh3 11y ago
Everyone else is just overanalyzing everything :)
erikb 11y ago
I should have read the comments first. That's the article in understandable.

froo 11y ago

In respect to outsourcing our health to doctors, that is for very good reasons. People are shown to be completely deficient when trying to look out for themselves in this regard.

skybrian 11y ago
A doctor can't keep you out of dangerous situations that are hazardous to your health. They can't exercise or watch your weight or quit smoking or take your medicine for you. They aren't there to notice the first symptoms of a disease. And you'll get worse results if you don't describe your symptoms accurately. Of course they'll still do the best they can for people who don't do any of these things, but people who take care of themselves (or have other people - amateurs - to advocate for them) are going to get better use out of the medical system.
jacobr1 11y ago
You still need to take overall ownership. Get second opinions. Do some research on use that not as the basis of making some sort of self diagnoses, but as to have a frank discourse with your doctor on your condition. Prevent the need for acute treatments by taking preventative measures that have broad scientific consensus (good diet, exercise, safety equipment, etc...). Do you have a living will and advance directives? Check to see if generic prescriptions would save you money. Proactively ask about different drug formulation if you anticipate or identify side-effects. Get justification for suggested remedies. Ensure your records are transferred or up to date when changing providers. Proactively inform your doctor of family history or environmental conditions regardless of any relevancy you expect - let them make the call but give them all the data. Research providers and providers networks, not just for expertise, which is really hard to judge, but for things like: If I call on the weekend who picks up? Your GP on her mobile? Whoever is on-call? A nurse? A referral service from the local hospital? It is wise to outsource expertise you don't have, but not management of that expertise if you can avoid it.
joeclark77 11y ago
For an alternative view, read Nassim Nicholas Taleb's "Antifragile" where he writes about iatrogenics.
mindcrime 11y ago
People are shown to be completely deficient when trying to look out for themselves in this regard. jacobr1 is completely right thought, YOU have to take ownership of your health situation. No one can do that for you. Your doctor has hundreds of patients to think about, and only so much cognitive energy available to burn. How much time per month does he/she spend thinking about you specifically? And note that your GP/PCP is likely not up to date on all of the cutting edge research coming down the pike. I'm sure they take their continuing education credits as required by the AMA or whatever, and some probably read a few journal articles and what-not, especially in an area of particular interest. But if you have some uncommon condition, do you think your doctor is on pubmed all day researching every study published on your condition, looking for that one extra bit of knowledge that might make a huge difference. Nah, they're playing golf. Or playing with their kids. Or any of the myriad of things normal people do when they aren't working. And what if you have, FSM forbid, two (or more) doctors. Maybe you have a GP and a cardiologist or an endocrinologist you see. Who's responsible for noticing and directing attention to conflicting instructions between the two? Who's responsible for making sure each knows about all the drugs you're prescribed by the other? Etc? Yeah, you are. Of course lay people shouldn't try to be their own doctor, but saying that you have to take responsibility for your health care is totally accurate.

seizethecheese 11y ago

Yes, absolutely. HN has a natural tendency to make everything about startups. Where this does overlap is the passage about child-rearing which posits that amateurs are more suited than professionals due to the breadth of skills necessary. This correlates nicely with startups, it seems, where being able to do a lot of things "badly" is more important than doing a few things "well." Foxes vs. hedgehogs.

zookatron 11y ago

I suppose the real question is then "How do we decide what is 'worth doing' ourselves?" I think it's fair to say that abolishing all division of labor doesn't make much sense. So what makes some activities different such that they should not be subject to division of labor? Outsourcing work to personal trainers, doctors, and musicians seems like a very good idea to me.

meric 11y ago
Let's say you got a date with a girl. Instead of a date you could have been programming making $100 per hour instead. The date costs you money. Would you outsource the date to your friend who will go in your stead with the girl, so you can be more productive? No way, the date is worth going in and of itself. Same logic with raising children. You're going to to look back on the experience with nothing but fondness. The experience of raising your child was valuable in and of itself. Life is not about maximising productivity, you know.
- zookatron 11y ago
  I don't think your example of dating is a very good one. You're changing the functional nature of the date by having someone else go on it. That's like saying you can't outsource hair-cutting to a barber because it would be equivalent of telling your friend to go cut his hair for you. Clearly you need to be participatory in some degree for the activity to retain it's functionality, but that doesn't mean you can't outsource the hard parts to someone else and have everyone be better off. (Maybe it's unrealistic, but personally I think we do need a bit more outsourcing in dating. We don't need to have everyone muddle through it by themselves, we can have skilled people help educate and guide us in how to find healthy meaningful relationships.) And honestly, I simply can't help disagreeing with the idea that everyone should raise children themselves, just because we will "look back on it with fondness". That seems to me to be the equivalent of saying (pardon the awful analogy) that people should kidnap women off the street and rape them because they find the experience "pleasurable". The way I see it is that by raising a child you are forcing your will upon them, they did not ask or consent to it and have no say in how it is done. And yet, child raising must be done somehow, and therefore you have a serious responsibility to try to ensure that it is done as well as it possibly can. You have no right to force poor parenting onto a child simply because you had a "nice experience". I realize my views on this may be a bit unusual, but I think it's worth considering.

superuser2 11y ago

>Gym - people outsource their Gym attendance to "the experts", Personal Trainers. Um, what? Your personal trainer doesn't go to the gym in your stead, they advise on how best to use your time there.

azdle 11y ago
In this case it's more about where you get the knowledge. To parallel the motherhood example FTA: > She does what she does not because she is going to be paid for her services and not because she is the most highly skilled, but because she wants to do it. And she does “the things worth doing,” which are the things closest and most sacred to all of humanity – nurturing a baby, teaching a child the first things, and, in fact, all things. You're not doing the exercises that are being chosen by the expert who is telling you what to do because you're paying them, you're doing the exercises you want to do purely out of self-interest.
linhchi 11y ago
But the fact that having a personal trainer improves things a lot. For example having a psychologist. She doesn't do anything, she just makes comments.
- afshin 11y ago
  Prosecutors and defense attorneys also don't "do anything" except just "make comments". For that matter, neither do presidents or professors.
xerophyte12932 11y ago
I think he meant "you shouldn't skip gym just because you don't have a trainer. Gym is worth doing, so it's even worth doing badly (without a trainer)"
- drewrv 11y ago
  I agree with this idea but if you work out badly enough you can seriously injure yourself.

r0fls 11y ago

While this isn't about MVPs or programming, this is Hacker News, so it's destined to be interpreted in that light once once posted here. I sympathize with your overall point, but reinterpretation contributes to timelessness.

armenarmen 11y ago
> reinterpretation contributes to timelessness I really enjoy that turn of phrase
- RyanMcGreal 11y ago
  In the United States, the recent legal trend toward strict originalism in interpreting the Constitution has created a widening disconnect between what was written in the late 18th and early 19th centuries and what the US needs today. This dogmatic refusal to reinterpret the Second Amendment, in particular, has created a profoundly bizarre (to this Canadian) situation in which the US has a rate of gun death - not just murder, but also suicide and accidental shooting - that has no comparison anywhere else in the developed world.

ljk 11y ago

imo stuff like gardening, landscaping, training a pet also falls under this category!

pjc50 11y ago

As a poster points out below, as originally written by Chesterton, this is "about" opposing the education of women in order that they might remain angelically primitive and unspoilt in their leisure activities. It is absolutely not about taking things like the gym seriously. Chesterton would argue for physical leisure (for men), but only in a fundamentally amateur fashion. Cricket on the village green, "jumpers for goalposts" football, that kind of thing. It's very English (upper class) and not at all Californian. (Chesterton was a tremendous writer, one of the greats of the English language, but should not be taken as a guide to living one's life in the present day without a pinch of salt)

jh3 11y ago

Everyone else is just overanalyzing everything :)

erikb 11y ago

I should have read the comments first. That's the article in understandable.