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>That is not the case for disagreement The reason why Github added these votes in the first place is so that people can give a signal of how welcome or not a c

>That is not the case for disagreement The reason why Github added these votes in the first place is so that people can give a signal of how welcome or not a certain change is to the project. If you only provide the signal for agreement but remove the signaling for disagreement and make it costly, then you'll get more people voting one way than the other. If it costs more to disagree then you're already rigging the game towards agreement.

joepie91_ 11y ago
Sure, but that is already the case - posting a :+1: costs much less effort than writing a counter-argument (and is already widely socially accepted, spammy-ness aside). The addition of an upvote button doesn't change this. That's not to say that I wouldn't like that bias resolved, but it's a bias that exists precisely because of the difference between 'agreement' and 'disagreement' that I described, and I'm not sure it can be solved in a technical manner.
- adnzzzzZ 11y ago
  How does enhancing the bias solve the issue? By not adding the downvote button this bias is enhanced. By adding the downvote button this bias is diminished. It's not a perfect solution but it's better than doing nothing.
  - joepie91_ 11y ago
    How do you see adding a button enhancing this bias? People already barely leave -1 replies without arguments.
pygy_ 11y ago
If there is such a strong counter argument, someone will make it (see XKCD 386) and it will be possible to upvote the dissenting opinion.
joeyespo 11y ago
-1 ... If I left the above with no further explanation, it doesn't give you any signal as to why I disagreed with you. One the other hand, if we were having this conversation on GitHub, people who agreed with my counter-point could react with a +1, giving you a much stronger signal about what exactly the disagreement is about. And once someone provides a valuable counter-argument, it's no longer "rigged toward agreement." Compared to an explanation with several +1's, a drive-by -1 adds virtually nothing to the discussion because they carry so little information.
- adnzzzzZ 11y ago
  Not everyone has to give a signal on why they disagreed with you as much as people don't have to give you a signal on why they agree with you. I don't get this argument. People may agree with 2 out of 5 things in a list and vote +1 because they don't care about the 3 other things. You still don't get that feedback from a +1, just like you won't get from a -1. There shouldn't be higher standards for disagreement based on reasons because the same doesn't exist for agreement.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - joepie91_ 11y ago
    > Not everyone has to give a signal on why they disagreed with you On GitHub? They absolutely do. It's a platform for collaboration, not idle chatter. If you do not wish to support your disagreement, you probably shouldn't be posting anything there to begin with. EDIT: I've also already explained to you why 'agreement' and 'disagreement' are held to different standards. I'm not sure why you keep repeating this point.
    - moe 11y ago
      > I'm not sure why you keep repeating this point. Because your distinction is wrong. A drive-by -1 is in no way different from a drive-by +1. Both are equally useful. Both indicate how many people agree or disagree. Neither explains why someone agrees or disagrees.
tylorr 11y ago
If you look at product reviews, people are more likely to write a comment if they have an issue with the product than if they don't. I'm not sure how much this applies to github topics but it could possibly provide it's own bias towards negative comments. Also, as others have mentioned, it only takes one person to write a negative comment, then others could +1 that.

joepie91_ 11y ago

Sure, but that is already the case - posting a :+1: costs much less effort than writing a counter-argument (and is already widely socially accepted, spammy-ness aside). The addition of an upvote button doesn't change this. That's not to say that I wouldn't like that bias resolved, but it's a bias that exists precisely because of the difference between 'agreement' and 'disagreement' that I described, and I'm not sure it can be solved in a technical manner.

adnzzzzZ 11y ago
How does enhancing the bias solve the issue? By not adding the downvote button this bias is enhanced. By adding the downvote button this bias is diminished. It's not a perfect solution but it's better than doing nothing.
- joepie91_ 11y ago
  How do you see adding a button enhancing this bias? People already barely leave -1 replies without arguments.

pygy_ 11y ago

If there is such a strong counter argument, someone will make it (see XKCD 386) and it will be possible to upvote the dissenting opinion.

joeyespo 11y ago

-1 ... If I left the above with no further explanation, it doesn't give you any signal as to why I disagreed with you. One the other hand, if we were having this conversation on GitHub, people who agreed with my counter-point could react with a +1, giving you a much stronger signal about what exactly the disagreement is about. And once someone provides a valuable counter-argument, it's no longer "rigged toward agreement." Compared to an explanation with several +1's, a drive-by -1 adds virtually nothing to the discussion because they carry so little information.

adnzzzzZ 11y ago
Not everyone has to give a signal on why they disagreed with you as much as people don't have to give you a signal on why they agree with you. I don't get this argument. People may agree with 2 out of 5 things in a list and vote +1 because they don't care about the 3 other things. You still don't get that feedback from a +1, just like you won't get from a -1. There shouldn't be higher standards for disagreement based on reasons because the same doesn't exist for agreement.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- joepie91_ 11y ago
  > Not everyone has to give a signal on why they disagreed with you On GitHub? They absolutely do. It's a platform for collaboration, not idle chatter. If you do not wish to support your disagreement, you probably shouldn't be posting anything there to begin with. EDIT: I've also already explained to you why 'agreement' and 'disagreement' are held to different standards. I'm not sure why you keep repeating this point.
  - moe 11y ago
    > I'm not sure why you keep repeating this point. Because your distinction is wrong. A drive-by -1 is in no way different from a drive-by +1. Both are equally useful. Both indicate how many people agree or disagree. Neither explains why someone agrees or disagrees.

tylorr 11y ago

If you look at product reviews, people are more likely to write a comment if they have an issue with the product than if they don't. I'm not sure how much this applies to github topics but it could possibly provide it's own bias towards negative comments. Also, as others have mentioned, it only takes one person to write a negative comment, then others could +1 that.