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Consider doing this "Moneyball" experiment using Football Manager [1] games. Those games are made for soccer/football management simulation. And your "Moneyball

by sinatra 11y ago

Consider doing this "Moneyball" experiment using Football Manager [1] games. Those games are made for soccer/football management simulation. And your "Moneyball" kind of playthrough is called LLM (Lower League Management) in the FM community. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager

89vision 11y ago
I love this game despite it being the ultimate time suck.
NTDF9 11y ago
This is the ultimate simulation game. This is the one game that taught me so much about simulations and my current job and interest in simulators. The number of ways I could affect a match was insane. It was great to understand the game and second guess how to beat the opponent (which meant studying the opponent's form, tactics, key players, injuries besides your own). I created excel sheets of players that I would scout and make averages of key attributes (like Pace, Dribbling, Heading, Finishing). These averages decided my player purchase decisions. With FM2007, I think I took Hull City from being a scrappy team to a team of Real Madrid's caliber within 5 years and then maintained that till season 2018. I could've gone further but memory leaks caused the game to go slow. I spent years of my childhood playing this. Could I have learned something more productive in that same time period? Yes. Do I regret studying this game inside out? No way.
- GordyMD 11y ago
  I can totally relate to the impact of FM on my life. I'm CTO of Workshape.io and some of our UI elements were inspired by the interface that was present in some of the older versions of Football Manager and Championship Manager. The concept of the radial plot for comparing player's skills was an idea we applied to our matching service. To echo the parent poster's comment. It would be very cool to extend this blog into a series and see an analysis like this applied to the most recent version of Football Manager.
- LoSboccacc 11y ago
  Same but with grand prix msnager.
- teh_klev 11y ago
  In my teens, I used to play the original 80's Football Manager [0] on my BBC Micro for hours, in fact days on end....and I can't stand football :) I know it's not the same game, and was never as sophisticated as modern FM, but damn it was addictive, even for a non-footy fan. I might have to take a look at modern era FM. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager_(1982_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager_(1982_series)
laxatives 11y ago
I think this is a good concept, but like all games, it just succumbs to exploiting imbalances. In Football Manager, its just finding all the Uber Wunderkids who can easily be bought for less than the lowest rated players in their prime. Then you just invest all of your money in coaching/facilities who can also be bought for significantly cheaper than adult players and in a few years, once the players hit like 18-19, you have a world class team that only continues to improve as they reach 25-26. Give it 5-6 years and your team is like a team of Ronaldos and Messi's at every position.
- rfergie 11y ago
  If a real football team did this I think it would work. Why don't they? Which step is the unrealistic one in the game?
  - laxatives 11y ago
    What are the odds any football team would produce a single Ronaldo or Messi from a youth prospect? What are the odds they would produce a team full of them at every position?
  - Malarkey73 11y ago
    Having an objective measure of each players skills and their potential. FIFA EA - Dribbling Ability: 23 (subjective) Moneyball - On Base Percentage 23% (objective)
  - koyote 11y ago
    Some of them sort of do or are trying to do this already. Arsenal actually bought StatDNA, a football data analytics company, a couple of years ago. So time will tell how they will use this to their advantage.
  - mkohlmyr 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Masia#Alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Masia#Alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_F%C3%A1brica#Notable_Alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_F%C3%A1brica#Notable_Alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_Youth_Academy#Notable_former_players https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_Youth_Academy#Notable_for... Presumably the unrealistic part is the how well it is possible to predict who will excel to a world class level. You take base athleticism and technical ability and you can clearly produce national league quality players very predictably and consistently. One would assume it is more difficult to judge future world-class potential and even more so the likelihood that potential will be lived up to.
rhizome 11y ago
Or "Out Of The Park Baseball," which is a management game that is about to release their new version, which includes over 100 years of minor league rosters. Now that's Moneyball-friendly data. http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/6/11169526/ootp-baseball-17-minor-leagues-historical-rosters http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/6/11169526/ootp-baseball-17-mi...
thirdsun 11y ago
Came here to check if someone mentioned Football Manager already. FIFA is basically child's play compared to depth of Football Manager where your transfers actually mean something and are in fact hard to pull off - even if you have the budget, often there's no way of attracting recognizable names or any talent at all without a certain level of reputation. I'd consider it a true challenge.
cadab 11y ago
Theres a whole series from The Set Pieces[1] where they play FM as Bristol City using the Moneyball playthrough. [1]http://thesetpieces.com/features/football-manager-meets-moneyball-pt-1/ http://thesetpieces.com/features/football-manager-meets-mone...

by sinatra 11y ago

89vision 11y ago

I love this game despite it being the ultimate time suck.

NTDF9 11y ago

This is the ultimate simulation game. This is the one game that taught me so much about simulations and my current job and interest in simulators. The number of ways I could affect a match was insane. It was great to understand the game and second guess how to beat the opponent (which meant studying the opponent's form, tactics, key players, injuries besides your own). I created excel sheets of players that I would scout and make averages of key attributes (like Pace, Dribbling, Heading, Finishing). These averages decided my player purchase decisions. With FM2007, I think I took Hull City from being a scrappy team to a team of Real Madrid's caliber within 5 years and then maintained that till season 2018. I could've gone further but memory leaks caused the game to go slow. I spent years of my childhood playing this. Could I have learned something more productive in that same time period? Yes. Do I regret studying this game inside out? No way.

GordyMD 11y ago
I can totally relate to the impact of FM on my life. I'm CTO of Workshape.io and some of our UI elements were inspired by the interface that was present in some of the older versions of Football Manager and Championship Manager. The concept of the radial plot for comparing player's skills was an idea we applied to our matching service. To echo the parent poster's comment. It would be very cool to extend this blog into a series and see an analysis like this applied to the most recent version of Football Manager.
LoSboccacc 11y ago
Same but with grand prix msnager.
teh_klev 11y ago
In my teens, I used to play the original 80's Football Manager [0] on my BBC Micro for hours, in fact days on end....and I can't stand football :) I know it's not the same game, and was never as sophisticated as modern FM, but damn it was addictive, even for a non-footy fan. I might have to take a look at modern era FM. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager_(1982_series) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_Manager_(1982_series)

laxatives 11y ago

I think this is a good concept, but like all games, it just succumbs to exploiting imbalances. In Football Manager, its just finding all the Uber Wunderkids who can easily be bought for less than the lowest rated players in their prime. Then you just invest all of your money in coaching/facilities who can also be bought for significantly cheaper than adult players and in a few years, once the players hit like 18-19, you have a world class team that only continues to improve as they reach 25-26. Give it 5-6 years and your team is like a team of Ronaldos and Messi's at every position.

rfergie 11y ago
If a real football team did this I think it would work. Why don't they? Which step is the unrealistic one in the game?
- laxatives 11y ago
  What are the odds any football team would produce a single Ronaldo or Messi from a youth prospect? What are the odds they would produce a team full of them at every position?
- Malarkey73 11y ago
  Having an objective measure of each players skills and their potential. FIFA EA - Dribbling Ability: 23 (subjective) Moneyball - On Base Percentage 23% (objective)
- koyote 11y ago
  Some of them sort of do or are trying to do this already. Arsenal actually bought StatDNA, a football data analytics company, a couple of years ago. So time will tell how they will use this to their advantage.
- mkohlmyr 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Masia#Alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Masia#Alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_F%C3%A1brica#Notable_Alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_F%C3%A1brica#Notable_Alumni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_Youth_Academy#Notable_former_players https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajax_Youth_Academy#Notable_for... Presumably the unrealistic part is the how well it is possible to predict who will excel to a world class level. You take base athleticism and technical ability and you can clearly produce national league quality players very predictably and consistently. One would assume it is more difficult to judge future world-class potential and even more so the likelihood that potential will be lived up to.

rhizome 11y ago

Or "Out Of The Park Baseball," which is a management game that is about to release their new version, which includes over 100 years of minor league rosters. Now that's Moneyball-friendly data. http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/6/11169526/ootp-baseball-17-minor-leagues-historical-rosters http://www.polygon.com/2016/3/6/11169526/ootp-baseball-17-mi...

thirdsun 11y ago

Came here to check if someone mentioned Football Manager already. FIFA is basically child's play compared to depth of Football Manager where your transfers actually mean something and are in fact hard to pull off - even if you have the budget, often there's no way of attracting recognizable names or any talent at all without a certain level of reputation. I'd consider it a true challenge.

cadab 11y ago

Theres a whole series from The Set Pieces[1] where they play FM as Bristol City using the Moneyball playthrough. [1]http://thesetpieces.com/features/football-manager-meets-moneyball-pt-1/ http://thesetpieces.com/features/football-manager-meets-mone...